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Old 12-09-2012, 07:59 PM   #15
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Sky-Boss, I just traded in a 38' Fleetwood that had a 300HP C7 Cat and we pulled a Honda CRV and we had a trans brake. We had no issues untill we hit mountains...not hills, mountains. You almost have to drive the 300's like old two stroke motorcycles, you have to stay in the power band. Turn off the econo mode before the mountains and let the thing shift, if it don't downshift fast enough then downshift it. You will not run 100 MPH up the mountain, but you will make it without issue. We now have a 43' tag with a 400 cummins, and considerably more torque....the 300 seat of the pants had more power and achieved cruise speed faster, although the torque of the 400 will beat it up a mountain if you are racing. What I am saying is that while we got more power and torque, we also gained alot of weight. You have to decide how much power you want vs how much power you can afford. Like others have said, it you can't buy this with a sound understanding that it will be the last rig you get then wait. (we all know though that we are probably not on our last rig regardless of what we tell ourselves...LOL) A C7 and 870 FPT is enough to get you down the road and pull a toad, but it might not be enought power to satisfy your hunger, only you will know that. And while a Jake type brake is certainly good, the trans brake is pretty danged good too. Alot call the trans brake an exhaust brake and the jake an engine brake, but the jake operates off the exhaust. The trans is just a set of downshifts done electronically and they work pretty good. Just food for thought.
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:23 PM   #16
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Maybe wrong wording as to build sheet like as to the cost values for options in coach.
Very interesting info on the cn54324 link could spend the day on all the links.
The high sides will catch the wind or trucks & bus passing but may have track bar added in rear or front axel to compensate for that. Comfort Drive would handle it on latest coach's since 08.
The 12' 11" is for the AC HEIGHT I would guess, your dish would add its height from roof line.
If your FTing it in coach didn't see when I looked for the added insulation option in coach but it may have already had it as standard.
Its interesting how a DP can raise so many questions as to power chain and braking just owning the DP would make me happy, I'd say this is a good start to something bigger later just do it while your young and healthy, you never know whats ahead for you and yours.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:43 AM   #17
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@ 007

THANKS! I found out the recorded height is 13'3" with the sat dome which is close to what I have now. I have added 6" to my Low Bridge GPS warning system to give me some wiggle room.

Would love to afford an 08' model with the Comfort Drive. Sigh. I will double check the sheet that came with it from the dealer. I will PM you on what I find and maybe you can help me decipher it. Don't have that sheet in front of me right now.

@ Mrchips

I think my goal is to have the ability to comfortably tackle unexpected big climbs at any reasonable speed. If that means I tag behind a struggling truck or MH in the right hand lane at an RPM that doesn't lug but isn't too close to the governed limit and engine temps stay in acceptable limits, it is good enough for me. What has me confused is just which C7 does this have?

I am have information on C7 that meet 04 standards with a max 330 HP and 07 standards with 350 HP max. I'm a bit confused on this particular issue.

Overview from cat: Cat Products: C7

07: http://catrvclub.org/PDF_Docs/C7_07_Spec_Sheet_707.pdf

04: http://www.cat.com/cda/files/2200315/7/LEHT8890-00.pdf

If anyone can clarify this for me...that would be great.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:37 AM   #18
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I remember when we received our first '04 Northern Star in inventory and we were at an RV show with it. Almost every single person entering the coach hit their head on the TV surround! We had to lock the door.

We never ordered another one, from what I can remember. Maybe the '05's were changed?
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:22 AM   #19
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I remember when we received our first '04 Northern Star in inventory and we were at an RV show with it. Almost every single person entering the coach hit their head on the TV surround! We had to lock the door.

We never ordered another one, from what I can remember. Maybe the '05's were changed?
I don't recall thinking the TV surround was an issue but we only entered it a couple times. Will look at that closer. I don't see any floor plan changes in that area between '04 & '05

Thanks for the "heads down" warning.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:20 PM   #20
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OK! I think I finally found the proper spec sheet for the RV version of the C7 engine which ranges from 300-350 HP.

http://www.rvtechlibrary.com/engine/Cat_C7_Specs.pdf

Here is how the 360 ISC compares to the 350 C7 as I eyeball the performance charts.

RPM CAT/CUMMINS HP CAT/CUMMINS TORQUE
1450 240/280 860/1050
1500 250/290 855/1040
1600 260/305 845/1030
1700 270/315 850/1015
1800 285/330 830/990
1900 295/345 815/975
2000 305/360 805/960
2100 320/350 795/900
2200 330/345 780/820
2300 340/NA 770/NA
2400 350/NA 760/NA

OK...that was my anal moment for the day. What did I learn? Depends I suppose. If I was working steep grades with the CAT I am GUESSING that I would be in the 2000-2200 RPM range. With the Cummins more like 1800-2000. Clearly the Cummins out powers the CAT but the $64K question is whether that additional power allows me to go to the most rational places I would like to go where the CAT would not take me without screaming at me to stop?

What I am reading on some threads here and discussion on other boards is that the CAT 350 will get the job done and I haven't really heard anyone say that it sucks while doing it. I'm certain there are some really big climbs out there that I know nothing of and until they present themselves I may be sorry if I didn't have a solid 400 HP on my tail. That is why I do listen to all of you and continue to beat my brains gleaning as much info and opinion as I can. I'm not committed to this NSDP because the seller is not pushing the sale until this spring so I have some time to research this out some more.

You guys (and gals maybe) have been great with my incessant questions over the last few months trying to find just the right MH for me and I just can't see something that isn't a Newmar.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:52 PM   #21
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IMHO, spend more time deciding on the absolutely correct floorplan for you and your family and stop worrying so much on 300 HP versus 330HP, versus 350HP versus 400HP. My 300HP C7 cat climbed everything I wanted to climb. I suspect my 400 Cummins will climb everything I want to climb. If power and speed are that critical then spend more time looking for the perfect floorplan that is pushed by the big horses 500+HP, and then remember that big horse eat alot of hay. I am a power junkie with my motorcycle and 600 HP vette, but you really have to ask when enough is enough to get the job done. Point being, if racing up a mountain is your focus, then you need not bother with anything less than 500 HP. You will not notice the difference between 300, 330 and 350 in my honest opinion. Just remember, if 50% of every highway in the US were up hill then 50% of every highway would be down hill. Find the floorplan that you want to spend your time in, then if it takes a few extra seconds or minutes to climb that monster mountain you are still in the floorplan and coach you like.....LOL Again, only my opinion.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:55 PM   #22
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CD will come with your next coach, after all you will get the Itch for a newer one eventually. I went through two Fords, and many upgrades to chassis, before we got the Workhorse.
As to climbing mountains and screaming engines they all survived with out ill effects a DP CAT will do just fine your new coach someday can be the 500 or 650 Cummings and if its used the bugs will be out of it.
You just need to get your feet on the pedals and enjoy the drive and owning a Newmar.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:15 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrchips
IMHO, spend more time deciding on the absolutely correct floorplan for you and your family and stop worrying so much on 300 HP versus 330HP, versus 350HP versus 400HP. My 300HP C7 cat climbed everything I wanted to climb. If power and speed are that critical then spend more time looking for the perfect floorplan that is pushed by the big horses 500+HP. Point being, if racing up a mountain is your focus, then you need not bother with anything less than 500 HP. You will not notice the difference between 300, 330 and 350 in my honest opinion.
I tend to agree with Mrchips.....the GO part of the MH equation is not all that important. I mean 0-60 in these things is "forever" ....so who cares. However, everything needs to work together to create an enjoyable driving experience. If the chassis is poorly designed and it wanders all over the road....if the power to weight ratio is so far off the thing can't get out of it's own way and over heats on every hill....if the transmission is too weak to handle the torque...etc.

I still think 850ft/lbs is marginal at best to push 35,000lbs & 60' of motorhome & toad.......and a rear radiator is going to be working overtime to keep cool. However, while the GO part of the equation is probably not that big a deal.....the keeping it cool is......and so is the STOPPING part of the equation. Still very much personal opinion and subjective, but if you do much summer mountain driving, as we do .....piloting 35,000lbs down a 3mile 8% grade @ 90* takes a certain level of finesse when you've only got an exhaust brake for a co-pilot!

The problem is that mid-luxury MH's in the mid-2000's were almost always CAT C-7's or ISC's with rear radiators and exhaust brakes....so what are you going to do? Grit your teeth and hold-on tight!,,!
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:30 PM   #24
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The Ventana is a vexing MH to me. Particularly in the early years it seems more entry level then FT. It was like Newmar couldn't figure out what to do with it since it had the NS and KS lines along with it. The VT has the same GVWR in 05-06 as the NS with less HP. So, in comparison to the VT for the most part, I get a better trimmed out MH with 20 more HP. I'm probably like you on engine maintenance in that I am not a mechanic in this or any previous life.

So...clearly the next level is the DS line. At that point I run into budget limits. There are a couple DSDP models that we like; '06 4028 and '05 4009 (I think there are versions with 370 & 350 HP). If our budget improves some MA dream units are 4304, 4307 & 4320.

This is why I put out my thoughts for veterans like you to keep me honest. No, I don't expect ya'll to make the final decision but posts like yours that challenge me to fine tune my thinking are of immense help.
In our owners manual for our 2002 Dutch Star it states that the unit is not designed for full time living. But that's the reason we bought it although circumstances haven't yet allowed it.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:33 PM   #25
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Sky-Boss, I just traded in a 38' Fleetwood that had a 300HP C7 Cat and we pulled a Honda CRV and we had a trans brake.
The only production MH that uses a transmission retarder is Foretravel. If you had anything but an exhaust brake it was added aftermarket. The 3126 and C-7 have never had anything but an exhaust brake. The C-9 is the smallest CAT with a "jake brake".
Units with Allison transmissions are programmed to "preselect" a lower gear (usually 2nd), the trans will agressively downshift, if possible, without damaging the engine, toward 2nd. Sounds like that is what yours was doing.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:37 PM   #26
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ALL GREAT ADVICE.

So...some of you know that I have to be anal about fact and figures and then I can pick the fly specks out of the pepper. It is a process that has served me well for 5 decades. In the end I take all this technical stuff, run in through my grey matter computer and see what comes out. Of course, there is the government employee in me that then has to measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a grease pencil then cut it with a chain saw.

Here are a few conclusions I think I can hang my hat on:

1. Anything with 350 HP seems to do the job of getting me most everywhere I want to go. I'm not looking to race up mountains just to spend extra $$$ on fuel in the flatlands for 500 HP of ego. I don't mean to insult those with HP to spare, it just isn't something I want to spend money on both in purchase price and fuel burn.

2. Floor plan still trumps HP. In this particular NSDP the Achilles heel is the queen bed. We generally will live in that bed together 7-8 hours a day. We feel that with the experience we have in our current queen bed that a king bed is must. No matter how attractive a floor plan is with a queen bed, we can't get around that issue. While we like this NSDP floor plan...it doesn't have a king bed.

3. One intangible factor is model name. When I run my searches on RVT or RV Trader I look for Dutch Star and Mountain Aire more than not. These models have a long history and when it comes time to selling it, we think that generally these models will sell better on name recognition than other models.

4. Chassis selection is a factor but IFS in-and-of itself is not an absolute. That being said, our current MH has 248" wheel base while the VTDP & NSDP only have 252". We would like a bit more. A 40' DSDP without a tag get us up to 276" which we feel will make a major change in driving pleasure. Yes, even the 252" DP wheel base should be better than our Workhorse. However, we are not feeling an absolute need for a tag axle but under the right situation, we would consider it. I know some swear by them, it just isn't something we think will be a deciding factor. That all being said, CCC is important for our FT plans. In a lot of cases that tends to put a restriction on 4 slide models without a tag axle because of the weight. While it is not a universal 100% restriction, it is something we are expecting to be a factor anyway.

5. Budget is a factor. We believe we can consider models within $70K of trade-in value, or above what we sell our current MH for. We could go a bit more if tires are newish (3 years or less anyway), full service records are available, batteries are good and the usual list of things that might normally need attention. Our goal is to private sell and then private buy because we feel we can beat any tax advantage of a trade-in. In IL we would only pay $1500 max on private purchase instead of 6.25% after trade in with a dealer.

So, regarding the NDSP we were looking at. We have 90% taken it off our list because of the following issues in order of importance:
1. No king bed.
2. Chassis wheel base length.
3. Intangible factors. It just doesn't quite jump out and demand our attention. It is a very nice vehicle, well worth the time to look into it. It will make someone else very happy.

What keeps us 10% interested:
1. Budget. Given the new tires and other goodies included, it would be well within both our purchase budget and avoid putting in more money to improve it.
2. Floor plan except queen bed.
3. It is a proven FT MH with a very good CCC.

What would make us buy it? If the owner came to use later and really slashed the price to say $90K or so...we might give it a go and see if we adapted to its weaknesses. Who knows, I have lost 140# and maybe a queen bed will work for us. LOL

Thanks to all that have given me the time to think this out loud. Your feed back has been important and I guarantee that in the future I will be thinking out loud again.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:50 PM   #27
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In our owners manual for our 2002 Dutch Star it states that the unit is not designed for full time living. But that's the reason we bought it although circumstances haven't yet allowed it.
RV.ORG considers almost the entire DSDP line as suitable for full time use. They specifically list the 4009 starting in '04. For some reason they don't even include 4009 in the '02 & '03 list.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:54 PM   #28
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What has me confused is just which C7 does this have?

I am have information on C7 that meet 04 standards with a max 330 HP and 07 standards with 350 HP max. I'm a bit confused on this particular issue.

Overview from cat: Cat Products: C7

07: http://catrvclub.org/PDF_Docs/C7_07_Spec_Sheet_707.pdf

04: http://www.cat.com/cda/files/2200315/7/LEHT8890-00.pdf

If anyone can clarify this for me...that would be great.
If it's an '05 than it will have an engine before that not an '07 spec one.
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