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Old 12-09-2007, 04:34 PM   #43
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Can always use your help with these trouble free MH's </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Must be 5 o' clock somewhere.....
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Old 12-09-2007, 05:16 PM   #44
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Wow -- very disturbing thread.

So far my monitoring of various forums leads me to believe that Newmar is having more issues than most other coach manufacturers -- I have taken them off my short list.
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Old 12-09-2007, 06:04 PM   #45
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Same chassis are under other MFG's coachs.
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Old 12-10-2007, 09:45 AM   #46
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Wow -- very disturbing thread </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi! Welcome to the forum. We would Love to hear what is on your short list. Paul
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:09 PM   #47
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I also had the opportunity to look at problems from an engineering standpoint. 15 years in the office as a project manager then 19 years in the field repairing the screw-ups caused by manufacturing and engineering.
The only way Newmar will ever improve quality is if the "BOSS" gets out of bed some day and see's the need to correct the problems. Presently the management can afford the trailing costs since they reduced the warranty. I was told directly by a member of the present management the reason the warranties were reduced was to cut down on trailing costs.
The ISO manufacturing programs force companies to have a flow chart that will document were the problems are starting. For Newmar to get into this type of program would be an enormus cost and a great amount of time is also required. Does it work? You bet it does and I saw it first hand when I was working.
Presently Newmars answer to the problems are to raise prices to cover trailing costs, this will all come to a head when the economy slows down and people quit buying.
My '01 KSDP looks better everytime I look at the new ones!
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Old 12-22-2007, 05:45 AM   #48
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I find this thread very interesting. All the comments made since my first post are all true. babybear and I have a lot in common, although I think we could debate about the cost of quality systems, I've been able to demonstrate the implementation of these systems with little or no cost. The management buy-in is the key.
The manufacturers better pay attention now, we all know where National is today, and I predict you will see more to follow if the management of the RV companies don't get busy and embrace the techniques necessary to stay in business in today's business climate. Business as usual just won't cut it anymore.
I apologize for my ramblings, but this is a passionate subject for me. I had to go through this the hard way in the automotive industry, and it bothers me to see history repeating itself in the RV industry.
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Old 12-22-2007, 08:59 AM   #49
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First let me say that this is an interesting thread for several reasons, and I by no means am defending poor quality, I worked in a world for 43 years where there was no quality compromises tolerated. Hhere are some things and observations that have made me understand/accept RV manufacturing for what it is.

Just some food for thought;
When we bought our new 89 Safari, joined Safari International, FMCA and etc., Safari was a fletching new company which was struggling for its niche in the RV markets. Attended numerous Safari sponsored RV Rallies which always included at least one 4 hour session of Question and Answer period with the President and Vice Presidents of the company. Number one topic was manufacturing quality issues. During these rallies factory support teams gave away the "farm" fixing problems relating back to quality issues during manufacturing, they could have cared less if you were in or out of warranty. Happy customer is returning customer, we are suckers for free stuff, whether it is "free" or not! Seems we have progressed little in almost 20 years. Safari now part of Monaco, what goes around comes around, people who started Safari came from the Monaco management ranks. Many will say Monaco's biggest problem today is Quality and/or to many production models. And the main compliant of the RV buyer, regardless of brand appears to be Quality. Have things improved over the years, in my opinion yes they have! Could they be better, yes they could! Are we the consumers willing to pay for better manufacturing quality? That remains to be seen, the RV industry must think NOT or they would be doing their best to solve what appears to be the number 1 complaint of RV consumers. After all other industries have listen, changed, and charged more $$ for the improved product.
We try to understand why the RV mfg cannot implement the QA processes that we see utilized it mass produced/production line items. Saying well if the auto/TV/tractor/etc. industries can do it why can't the RV industry!
Saying our RV's are "mass produced" may be the first misnomer. I wonder if GM/Boeing/Sony/BMW/Kubota:
Manufacture products that in some cases the list of optional equipment is as long if not longer than standard equipment list!
The maximum product line model output is maybe 250 items a year of which you may be lucky if any 2 of the end products are EXACTLY the same!
Run a product line that may have multiple models being produced simultaneously on the same line! Wonder what kind of product we would see from Boeing if they were producing a 777, 767, and 747 on the same production line, simultaneously. Kind of far fetched but something to think about.

I going to borrow some words from the Chief Financial Officer of Country Coach that appeared in fall issue of the Country Coach Destinations magazine: "A motorcoach is more than a custom house that is mounted on a truck. A car has around 4,000 parts that are typically per-formed and installed through a robotics process. A motorcoach has around 20,000 parts that are mostly formed and installed by hand. Not only does this create a significant amount of complexity, but it also creates a uniqueness and personality to each coach." Not all of our coaches are Hi-Lines but the principle of manufacturing is the same, regardless of band and model. This statement may add some perspective to understanding why RV manufacturing quality is what it is, it does for me.

Happy Holidays
Spike
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Old 12-22-2007, 09:14 AM   #50
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Spike I like your statement and can now understand why I have so much hands on experience with my coachs.
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Old 12-26-2007, 04:21 PM   #51
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I wonder if GM/Boeing/Sony/BMW/Kubota:
Manufacture products that in some cases the list of optional equipment is as long if not longer than standard equipment list!
The maximum product line model output is maybe 250 items a year of which you may be lucky if any 2 of the end products are EXACTLY the same!
Run a product line that may have multiple models being produced simultaneously on the same line! Wonder what kind of product we would see from Boeing if they were producing a 777, 767, and 747 on the same production line, simultaneously. Kind of far fetched but something to think about.

I going to borrow some words from the Chief Financial Officer of Country Coach that appeared in fall issue of the Country Coach Destinations magazine: "A motorcoach is more than a custom house that is mounted on a truck. A car has around 4,000 parts that are typically per-formed and installed through a robotics process. A motorcoach has around 20,000 parts that are mostly formed and installed by hand. Not only does this create a significant amount of complexity, but it also creates a uniqueness and personality to each coach." Not all of our coaches are Hi-Lines but the principle of manufacturing is the same, regardless of band and model. This statement may add some perspective to understanding why RV manufacturing quality is what it is, it does for me.

Happy Holidays
Spike </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOW SOMEONE GETS IT!
A motorhome is a house on wheels, why all the comparing to the car industry?
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Old 12-26-2007, 06:39 PM   #52
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The real problem is you have to compare a motorhome to the AUTO/Truck industry, the HOUSING industry, the UTILITY industries (power gen, water supply, sewer), the APPLIANCES industries AND the ELECTRONICS industries (A/V systems, TVs, etc.) all at the SAME time...

Not to give anyone an out from building in quality in the first place, but the task of doing so across nearly every industry in a single unit is a definite challenge. As is the challenge of maintaining and servicing these units. I'm with 007 on being hands-on!
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Old 12-27-2007, 02:27 AM   #53
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The RV industry compares exactly to the Sportfishing boat industry, although the boats are a little more complicated(two larger engines, five or more ACs, Ice Machines, large RO water makers, oil change systems, radar, fish finders, etc.). A very few of the boat manufacturers have been able to deliver a consistently minimial trouble free boat. Others have a good one then a bad one like the RV industry.
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