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Old 07-13-2007, 04:52 AM   #1
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I hesitated to post this for a long time, but after reading Rebelsbeach's problems with his Essex & now the LADB, I decided to go ahead.

We took delivery of our MADP 4523 in late October, 2006. It is now July 2007, and we have had over 60 warantee repairs! - so far.

We're on our 3rd refrigerator, second washing machine (after 4 service calls to try & fix the first one), third back up camera monitor & related items. I could go on & on. We recently spent 16 (yes sixteen) days at the factory getting work done(and we weren't the longest residents of highline service there!), and the backup camera which they "repaired" breaks (again) the first day out.

Some of these fixes are not Newmars fault, I grant you. The Spartan fan issues for instance are well documented in other forums on irv2. And you can well argue that the fridge, washer etc are supplier issues. That is as may be. But . . the bottom line is that the customer is the one who suffers the results of these problems. In either vacation time lost while waiting for repairs, inability to use their coach etc. etc. There are those who will argue that all coach manufacturers have this problem - vendors, competent help, quality control etc etc etc. Well, try using that argument at Boeing.

When one pays what these coaches are going for, I believe it is incumbent on the manufacturer to ensure that their product is functional right out of the "box". That is not happening at Newmar right now. This is our second Newmar, and truthfully, the way I feel now, I am truly not sure I would buy another.
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:52 AM   #2
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I hesitated to post this for a long time, but after reading Rebelsbeach's problems with his Essex & now the LADB, I decided to go ahead.

We took delivery of our MADP 4523 in late October, 2006. It is now July 2007, and we have had over 60 warantee repairs! - so far.

We're on our 3rd refrigerator, second washing machine (after 4 service calls to try & fix the first one), third back up camera monitor & related items. I could go on & on. We recently spent 16 (yes sixteen) days at the factory getting work done(and we weren't the longest residents of highline service there!), and the backup camera which they "repaired" breaks (again) the first day out.

Some of these fixes are not Newmars fault, I grant you. The Spartan fan issues for instance are well documented in other forums on irv2. And you can well argue that the fridge, washer etc are supplier issues. That is as may be. But . . the bottom line is that the customer is the one who suffers the results of these problems. In either vacation time lost while waiting for repairs, inability to use their coach etc. etc. There are those who will argue that all coach manufacturers have this problem - vendors, competent help, quality control etc etc etc. Well, try using that argument at Boeing.

When one pays what these coaches are going for, I believe it is incumbent on the manufacturer to ensure that their product is functional right out of the "box". That is not happening at Newmar right now. This is our second Newmar, and truthfully, the way I feel now, I am truly not sure I would buy another.
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:04 AM   #3
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I agree, and find it very sad that the American RV industry is in the same shape the car industry was prior to the Japanese and Germans entering the field.
When the manufacturing giants sit and relax, not worrying about competition, someone comes along with: 1. a better mouse trap; 2. a state subsidized cat.
In our lifetime we only have to look at: U.S. Steel, American Motors, Poloroid, Zayre, Bergdorf Goodman, B. Altman, etc., etc.
The RV industry is ripe for a huge upheavel, and it is due to exactly what Doc Mark has said, and the concens he has voiced.
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Old 07-13-2007, 06:16 AM   #4
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I agree with the comments.

It will be an even more acute problem for the owners if these problems continue to surface when the shorter warranty runs out.

I am not sure I would buy another Newmar unless the problem reports start to dwindle AND they return to the 3 year warrany.
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Old 07-13-2007, 06:32 AM   #5
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Is it the general opinion that EVERY coach that rolls off the line will require several visits for repairs? If so, are there are manufacturers that have better quality?
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Old 07-13-2007, 06:46 AM   #6
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Doc Mark is 100% correct.

We keep buying these coaches, so there is little incentive for the manufacturers to improve quality.

The manufacturers talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk.

However, since there is no alternative manufacturer that produces a relatively problem free coach, we have little choice.

As other have posted, there is a great need for a new era in coach production.

I's sure that some of the manufacturers can produce a relatively problem free coach, but the price would be prohibitive under the present business model.
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Old 07-13-2007, 11:37 AM   #7
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Dirk's quote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I's sure that some of the manufacturers can produce a relatively problem free coach, but the price would be prohibitive under the present business model. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am interested in why you believe this to be true. The American cars we lived with in the late 60's and 70's were clearly inferior quality products. The Japanese designed and manufactured cars that re-set the bar on automotive quality and sold the cars for less than the US counterparts. Finally the US manufacturers got the idea and built quality into the product. We did not see a dramatic increase in auto prices as quality was engineered into the design. There are many other examples of US industries who jumped on the quality bandwagon and now deliver longer life, less failure prone products.


A manufacturer can get serious about their internally and externally sourced components and integrate them into a sound product without significant price increases. It won't happen in the RV industry if we just continue to accept the junk they deliver.
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Old 07-13-2007, 01:02 PM   #8
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We did not see a dramatic increase in auto prices as quality was engineered into the design. There are many other examples of US industries who jumped on the quality bandwagon and now deliver longer life, less failure prone products. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe we are basically in agreement.

My point was that quality needs to be engineered in.

Unless that happens, the only way to improve quality, and it's certainly not as good as engineered quality, is to take much more time in building the RVs, and spend a lot of time on testing the completed product before it's shipped.

That's where the prohibitive cost would be, taking much more time on each rig.

Engineering in the quality is the only correct answer.

But in the Bob's case, the LADB does have higher quality components, but the complexity is overwhelming.

Perhaps those higher quality components are not installed with the care they should have been installed with.

Perhaps said components are not of a higher quality, but only appear to be.

But we all agree that we should not be having the amount of problems we are having with new rigs.
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:50 PM   #9
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I don't think it is price that effects quality. Although I have never owned a Prevost, my first RV was a new 1966 VW Westphalia, and I had no warantee issues with that vehicle during the first 20,000 miles/14 months (after which I sold it).
Even then the Germans built it right.
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Old 07-14-2007, 05:48 AM   #10
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Dirk,
I disagree that making a quality coach would be cost prohibitive.

It is my opinion that Newmar needs to adjust their line speeds to allow the work to be done properly at each station. Sure, it might require a complete retooling of their processes but that is what the auto manufacturers and other industries have done to stay competitive. Perhaps they need to take the complex highline products to a separate facility with the line speed adjusted accordingly. You could say that the cost would increase for the actual manufacturing but they could reduce the amount of after-sale premium priced warranty work.

As an example, they must have rushed the job of putting the TV cable ends on my rig. They saved a little by moving my unit out of that station right on time. Once I discovered the issues, I took it right into a Newmar dealer where they put 9 hours @ $100 per hour locating and replacing the cable ends. And the funny part, the cable problem still required more hours when I got back to the factory. That is where Newmar needs to adjust their thinking. They can protect their margin and still sell at similar prices if they can remove the high cost of warranty repairs.

I would also argue that they are doing the same by adding the new highline technology and d├ęcor, "glitz factor"Ł, without sufficient testing and quality review. It is exactly the same as the line speed problem. They pick up the extra expense after the sale in the current scenario. A little more cost up front in design review and quality testing could reduce a ton of expense later.

Now the rub. They can also protect their margin by just reducing the warranty period and letting the coach owners bear the cost of the quality repairs. Sound familiar? You can hope that you catch all of the problems in the first year but I don't think that is always the case.
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Old 07-14-2007, 06:10 AM   #11
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In my NSHO I think we all have some pieces of the puzzle, but haven't put it together yet.

MBnKen - right on the money - line speed does contribute to the equation; however this does not address the suppliers issues (which most of mine have been). The front shocks were broken when we took delivery. The shocks are particularly distressing to me as they had to have either been defective when installed, broke on the trip from Nappanee, or when the dealer was doing the detailing for delivery. Nowhere in that chain did anyone do anything proactive. It was up to me to find the problem, and then return to the dealer to get it corrected. I had even mentioned the porpoising to the PDI guy as we were doing the pre-delivery drive and he said that was a normal ride. And like an idiot I believed him (my bad).

And truthfully I'm not sure that more thorough testing would have prevented some of this either. For instance, the fridge didn't die until about 7 months into the mission; while the washing machine died right out of the box. The dishwasher didn't work at the PDI (not properly leveled at the factory). I can't wait to see what breaks next!
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Old 07-14-2007, 07:43 AM   #12
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It WILL cost them(us) more money in the long run unless they change more than just slowing down the lines. Presently many RV owners either do their own repairs or don't bother fixing most of the problems-which reduces the total cost to the manufacturer.

Without the voulme similiar to the auto industry quality control issues that we are seeing will require additional monies to eliminate. Would the buyer be willing to pay more-yes-will the industry change-probably not as it will(unless one manufacturer starts to control the market due to quality-which has not happened yet) require all manufacturers to change.
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Old 07-14-2007, 09:28 AM   #13
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Writing off any customer issues as "Supplier" issues is a lame excuse. What about Quality Control and Inspection of raw materials. I am a consultant to several manufacturing companies and they all understand the value of THEIR brand depends on the quality of THEIR product as perceived by THEIR customer. Their product includes many raw materials and they thoroughly inspect every single one going into their products to protect THEIR brand. If a repeated problem shows up, they analyze the cause and if it was caused by a raw material, they modify the inspection process to not let the defect back into their product.

This is not rocket science. The RV industry has to be the only industry left that relies on this excuse.
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Old 07-14-2007, 09:47 AM   #14
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by soricobob:
I don't think it is price that effects quality. Although I have never owned a Prevost, my first RV was a new 1966 VW Westphalia, and I had no warantee issues with that vehicle during the first 20,000 miles/14 months (after which I sold it).
Even then the Germans built it right. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did it have the 6 volt or 12?

DID IT HAVE THE GAS HEATER THAT NEVER WORKED?

did you ever over rev it and break the crank shaft?

Burn out the a valve.?

I drove one over land from europe to india early 70tee

I learn how to fix it and there was lots of part available?
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