American Coach has Lithium Batteries. Coming from Newmar?

[Newaire1]

Current batteries do not have a fire danger and are in fact safer then lead acid.

[Mr.Mark]

Originally Posted by Tranquil Jim

Has the fire hazard issue with lithium batteries been resolved? I believe they are still restricted for shipment by air for that reason. Maybe this is not an issue for the larger units; I don't know.

TJ

Liberty Coach was the first converter to incorporate LI batteries into their coaches as standard equipment.

Here is an excerpt from one of the partners of Liberty Coach explaining the difference in LI technology.

"The Lithium-Ion system we are now using is a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery which makes it inherently safer and very stable compared to the Lithium Cobalt Oxide which is very volatile. You may hear from some people that these are very unsafe, have been recalled, explode, etc... it is also not efficient in our application and has a much shorter cycle life, so we are not using that type of Lithium-Ion battery. The batteries that explode and experience thermal run-away when damaged or overcharged are Lithium Cobalt Oxide. We are using Lithium Iron Phosphate technology.

The safety characteristics inherent to lithium iron phosphate technology result from:
The incorporation of phosphates as the cathode material. Phosphates are extremely stable in overcharge or short circuit conditions and have the ability to withstand high temperatures without decomposing.
When abuse does occur, phosphates are not prone to thermal runaway and will not burn. As a result, lithium iron phosphate technology possesses safety characteristics that are fundamentally superior to those of Lithium-ion batteries made with other cathode materials.
Lithium iron phosphate technology does not contain any heavy metals and does not exhibit the "memory effect" of Nickel-Cadmium and Nickel-metal Hydride solutions. Lithium iron phosphate technology demonstrates excellent shelf life, long cycle life and is maintenance free.
The advantages of traditional Lithium-ion coupled with the safety features of phosphates, make lithium iron phosphate technology the Lithium-ion technology for the future. Our lithium iron phosphate Lithium-ion technology utilizes natural, phosphate-based material and offers the greatest combination of performance, safety, cost, reliability and environmental characteristics.
We have been assured by the manufacturer and have watched safety presentations and videos of them shooting the batteries and overcharging them, that these are safe."

Mark

[TJ]

Thanks for that information on the newer Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. It is very helpful in understanding the new battery architecture. Glad to see battery science is still advancing.

TJ

[nothermark]

Originally Posted by Newaire1

Current batteries do not have a fire danger and are in fact safer then lead acid.

Maybe. LiFe is less likely to self combust than LiPo. OTOH either one will make more heat if shorted out. I don't want to be around any Li in a fire.

[Rd1]

Originally Posted by Mr.Mark

Liberty Coach was the first converter to incorporate LI batteries

Mark

Thank you for the info.. one question I have for you, are your Li Batts in an environmental safe area from extreme temps? I know some new Li Batt have additional circuitry to shut them down in extreme weather less 30 or extreme high. So they can be placed in the same compartments as our existing batt compt, vs inside the coach. Just curious how yours may be setup. thanks

[Mr.Mark]

Originally Posted by Rd1

Thank you for the info.. one question I have for you, are your Li Batts in an environmental safe area from extreme temps? I know some new Li Batt have additional circuitry to shut them down in extreme weather less 30 or extreme high. So they can be placed in the same compartments as our existing batt compt, vs inside the coach. Just curious how yours may be setup. thanks

Our three Li batteries are located on the driver's side in a bay about mid way back. That bay also contains electric components and there is also enough room in the area to store some items. I have a plastic bin above the batteries (the batteries are protected) holding extra power cords.

The area where the batteries are located have the four inverters right next to them. There are three small electric fans built into the side of the bay that keep a constant air flow for the batteries and inverters. The air exits into a bay that has a grill at the bottom as the generator radiator is in that bay (the generator is located forward two bays in a hush-box).

When I check the temps of the batteries, they always seem to be about the same as the ambient outside temp.

Mark

[Battery Dude]

Originally Posted by lostinfla

I would love to know the difference in weight between 8 lead acid batteries and corresponding lithium units. I would imagine it is quite a bit.

If you compare 1x 8D AGM Trojan Battery @ 161 Lbs ~ 3 kWhr (Good Luck getting close to that...)

Now multiply that by 8 - You get 1,288 Lbs with ~ 24 kWhr of Energy Storage
with a volume of 110 Sq FT.

Equivalent Volta System:

Total weight of system: 409 Lbs.... Total Volume: 64.5 Sq FT, Total True energy storage is 23.8kWHr of energy storage..

Think about it this way: If you run your Air Conditioner overnight (say 8hr's) and if is running at a duty cycle of 60%, You need to provide 120Vac @ 14A for 60% of the 8Hr's. That would be: ~ 8 kW of energy, a battery with ~ 24kWHr would give you... ~ 24 Hours without having to run a generator or plugging into shore power.

[Canuck53]

What are the temperature limitations low and high for the LI batteries? How is the temperature limits managed if replacing the AGM with the LI in the same location?

[Battery Dude]

Originally Posted by Canuck53

What are the temperature limitations low and high for the LI batteries? How is the temperature limits managed if replacing the AGM with the LI in the same location?

1st: All batteries, regardless of it's chemistry, hates to be Cold and Hurts to be hot.

2nd: As actual Temp limits for Lithium, -4F to +131F operational but with caveats.

When really cold, say below 32F, You shouldn't charge a lithium battery. That could cause Lithium plating within the cell, the colder the worse it could be. This will steal away capacity long term for the cell. The hotter a lithium cell, say above 95F, the less life expectancy you could expect from the cell.

3rd: How to handle both Hot and Cold? When a battery is getting cold... this is gonna sound simple but keep it warm. SO what we do is turn on heating devices that prevent the system from getting any colder and actually warm them up. This is more difficult if you allowed the system to cold soak and now want to use it. You will have to warm it up and not charge it or not overly discharge during this warm up period. The good news is that the Volta system takes care of this by itself. The system knows what temp it's at and takes action to keep itself warm. On the hot side... simply moving cooled air into it's area will do wonders. The system can use ducted cool air from the passenger compartment to do this task. See, I told you it would sound simple but it takes some engineering (lot's of software as well) to make this all work reliably. The good news about RV lithium systems is that we don't "normally" do any regenerative braking like a EV car. Regen braking is a killer regarding heating up a battery. Without regen braking ht e high quality cells used in say, the Volta system, don't really heat the cells up.

Sorry, I can get kind of wordy some times with my responses.