Batteries, Batteries, Batteries...

[brobox]

First thing I saw was the batteries are undersized. They are 75 amp where the normal 6 volt batteries are 220 amp.

[Mr_D]

Originally Posted by brobox

First thing I saw was the batteries are undersized. They are 75 amp where the normal 6 volt batteries are 220 amp.

Deep Cycle batteries are usually rated at a 20 amp load, not the 75 shown on the batteries.
CG-2's should be about 230 min. at the 20 amp rate.

[Bill-MACV21]

Always a very interesting process when each of us provides suggestions based on our individual perspective and limited/partial information.

In each case the response provides more information from another viewpoint and I gain a better understanding of my RV systems.

[JasonDean]

Originally Posted by FlyingDiver

What voltage do you get on the batteries? With and without shore power? If you don't have a multi-meter, get one before you do anything else.

Also, the label on your batteries says they're group size GC-2. Group size is the physical size of the battery: List of Common Battery Case Sizes | BCI Group Numbers

Thank you, FlyingDiver. I do have a multi-meter, but don't know how to use it. (Youtube, here I come).

I have a Battery Disconnect panel in my coach that currently says the batts are at 13.3v -- but we're connected to shore power. If I disconnect shore power that panel will almost immediately read in the 10s.

And thank you for clearing that up about the group size. Got it now.

Originally Posted by Bill-MACV21

They are not more powerful.

Thank you, Bill-MACV21. So 12v is 12 v. I'm getting it now. The Lifelines just store more juice for a longer time. But more juice doesn't mean 'more powerful' juice. Got it.

Originally Posted by Bill-MACV21

Probably not enough room and your inverter/charger is sized to your battery capacity and load profile.

Ok... I do have room for them in the basement (especially if they are AGM and they don't leak like the wet cells). But you're saying my inverter is the bottleneck. Clearly I need to figure out what inverter I have and if it can handle more than 4 batteries.

Originally Posted by twinboat

Your batteries are wired wrong.

Thank you, twinboat. I was wondering about the wires you mentioned! The diagram (see new attached pic) doesn't show them and I don't know why they're there. As for the small wire you mentioned later... FlyingDiver suggested that it's "supposed" to be that way for 2007. I assume he's right. Still want to know about those short, fat jumpers between the positive terminals though.

Originally Posted by CadillLinc

Have you had the batteries checked? Sounds more like a problem wit the transfer switch and/or inverter. Suggest you visit a Newmar dealer and ask for an in-depth RV orientation. They may charge you, but should be well worth it.

Thank you, CadillLinc. Haven't had them checked -- they're obviously old and not worth the expense, IMO. You're right we definitely need to pursue a thorough education/orientation. But we're really not happy with the Newmar dealer, and now I don't know who to trust.

Originally Posted by twinboat

Have you checked the water?

No. As I said to CadillLinc, I don't think they're worth messing with. Everything I've read says that if the voltage is down around 10v then the batteries will be permanently damaged. If that's the case, I assume they're not worth the time/expense to rehab them. Is this wrong-headed thinking?

Originally Posted by Bill-MACV21

Does not matter. Bats are bats to a large degree. The inverter/charger is the key element. However the refer may be marginal due to its age. You may want to have it serviced.

Yeah, I'm getting that impression. I'm finally figuring out that the appliances don't care about the batteries. They only know what kind of juice they're getting from the inverter. So that's helpful, thanks. Once again, it looks like I need to dig deeper into the inverter and learn more about how it works. You also mentioned the Transfer Switch -- is that a separate unit, or is it built into the inverter, like the charger is?

Originally Posted by FlyingDiver

On an MADP of that year, it's for the "low" position on the 12V lights.

Thank you for clearing that up!

Originally Posted by Rotten-Red

First I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that your batteries are bad. Even bad batteries probably would power things for a short time. It sounds like your inverter isn't kicking in when you unplug from shore power, yes it should power things immediately when you unplug. Your alarm clock should not reset to 12:00. I'm not
familiar with the Magnum, but there should be circuit breakers on it. Check to make sure their not tripped.

Thank you, Rotten-Red. I have checked the breakers, and they all seem to be on. And I assume (perhaps wrongly) that since my battery disconnect panel reads 13.3 (on shore power) and then 10.1 (off shore power) that the units are all 'talking to each other' correctly. Thank you for your other answers as well. Very helpful!

[JasonDean]

Originally Posted by CadillLinc

Another thought. On our Xantrex control panel, there is a button to turn the inverter on and off. Is it on? Second, there are 2 circuit breakers on our Xantrex inverter (located in the basement). Are they on?

Yes, the inverter is on. Breakers in the basement? Not sure about that. On my coach the breakers are in the bathroom. I will look around and see if I can locate any down below.

Originally Posted by charliej

The battery cut off switch isn't in storage mode is it? I would think some of your lights would work even with very poor batteries after being on shore power.

No, the batteries are "on". And you may be right. There may be a tiny trickle of power in the system when we disconnect from shore. But certainly not enough to run a TV or anything like that for more than about a second.

Case in point -- Superbowl Sunday:

• Cooking dinner in the Advantium oven.
• Kitchen and Living Room lights on.
• Watching the game on the forward TV.
• Stereo speakers at moderate level.
• Hydro-hot running for heat.
• My computer was on.

..... then suddenly the power went out in the campground. Instant blackness in our coach. Everything down to the bedside alarm clock was off.

It wasn't a breaker issue. The breakers didn't flip, and nothing over heated. We just lost shore power. SO... there may have been enough juice in the system to run a few lights for a few seconds -- if that had been the only thing on -- but with the other things running it was equivalent to an instant and complete shut down.

Originally Posted by brobox

First thing I saw was the batteries are undersized. They are 75 amp where the normal 6 volt batteries are 220 amp.

Originally Posted by Mr_D

Deep Cycle batteries are usually rated at a 20 amp load, not the 75 shown on the batteries.
CG-2's should be about 230 min. at the 20 amp rate.

According to Napa's website, my current batteries are rated "20 Ah Rate=225". But I have no idea how old they are or what kind of abuse they've seen.

[Rotten-Red]

Based on everything posted and all the things you've told us it does appear that it just could be a battery problem. I would charge the batteries completely (they must be fully charged) then remove them and take to a battery shop for load testing. That will answer the question if the batteries are the problem.

[Rotten-Red]

[QUOTE=JasonDean;2516211]Intro:

• In January DW and I bought a 2007 MADP 4523.
• Full-timing since we took delivery.
• It's our first RV of any kind.
• Being newbie idiots, we made MANY(!) mistakes with our purchase and among other things, we did not request new batteries.
• Totally lost... and overwhelmed...

Part of my problem is... Even if everything was working 100% perfectly, I don't think I would KNOW it. In other words, I'm not clear how any of this is "supposed" to work in day-to-day life.

Jason,

Don't sell yourself short. From the information you've provided during this troubleshooting session you seem to be a lot more knowledgeable than you give yourself credit for.

[Bill-MACV21]

FYI the 13.3 you are reading is the charge rate going to the bats.

A quick check (not as good as a load check) is to just pull it off the shore plower or generator and let it settle to it's actual operating voltage.

Note that most good batteries will maintain a "surface charge of up to +13 volts for a short period of time. They will quickly taper to their actual operating voltage after they have worked off the surface charge through the invertor to provide 120 v and support the 12 v loads. It may take anywhere from 5-30 minutes to get to 10.6 or whatever it ends up at.

If one or more bats (or cells) are bad it will drop like a stone to the best that it can maintain..... which sounds like your situation.

Use the volt meter on each battery to see who are the guilty parties.

Also there should be a code on each bat that provides the mfg date. A letter for the month (A = January) and a number (08 = 2008). That should help determine the real age of the bats.

["007"]

Is the coach plugged in and do you have this switched on at all time using the coach.


You may have only one battery causing a problem before removing any thing tag and tie all cables and note positions of batteries on tray. This includes the small wires on battery posts, which people forget.
You have photo take a couple more if its necessary to remove the batteries for testing.

Batteries----Batteries ------ Tech information.

Do you have a stand alone 12v battery charger??

[wa8yxm]

Your battery size is GC-2 (Six volt Golf Car) 210-230 amp hours at six volt when on the bench, They ware wired in pairs, in series, making each pair the equal to a 4D (12 volt still 210-230 amp hours) The pairs are then wired in parallel.

Consider eachpair as a single battery (12 volt).

Since your RV is a 2007.. It may well be the batteries are dead, it appars they may be OEM (No warranty date punchd on tag)

This battery is popular because Deep Cycle (it is) are best for HOUSE battery use and this is one of the least expensive Lead Acid batteries made (In terms of capacity/dollars)

You can get them at Sams, Costco, NAPA, and most golf car supplies

Sams is lowest cost usually.

[JohnT]

Your battery wiring layout caught my interest. I went out to look at mine and they do not match. The wiring diagram supplied by Newmar is the same on both coaches.

Mine. (flame suit on)

[JasonDean]

Originally Posted by Bill-MACV21

Also there should be a code on each bat that provides the mfg date. A letter for the month (A = January) and a number (08 = 2008). That should help determine the real age of the bats.

Interesting. Thank you, Bill-MACV21. My date code appears to be G4. There is a black round sticker that says G4. So does that mean 2004 or 2014? They look like they have to be older than 2014. But I can't imagine they are left over from 2004. Newmar wouldn't install a 2004 batt in a 2007 coach, would they?

Originally Posted by 007

Is the coach plugged in and do you have this switched on at all time using the coach.

Do you have a stand alone 12v battery charger??

Yes, coach is plugged in and yes the batts are on -- connected. No, I don't have a stand alone battery charger.

Originally Posted by wa8yxm

Your battery size is GC-2 (Six volt Golf Car) 210-230 amp hours at six volt when on the bench, They ware wired in pairs, in series, making each pair the equal to a 4D (12 volt still 210-230 amp hours) The pairs are then wired in parallel.

Consider eachpair as a single battery (12 volt).

Since your RV is a 2007.. It may well be the batteries are dead, it appars they may be OEM (No warranty date punchd on tag)

Thank you, wa8yxm. This thread has helped me immensely. I now know exactly what batts I have, and how they're "supposed" to work (size, aH, etc.) Also understand that each pair is supposed to work as a single. But as several have suggested, it appears that my batts are wired incorrectly. I wish I knew why/how they wound up with this wiring. The factory diagram clearly shows that the current setup is wrong. I'm just thankful it hasn't caused a fire or something!

Interesting that you think they may be OEM batteries. I've always assumed that they'd been replaced at some point and I wondered why the date/month stickers hadn't been punched out. Perhaps they are indeed OEM that would explain everything except the incorrect wiring.

Originally Posted by JohnT

Your battery wiring layout caught my interest. I went out to look at mine and they do not match. The wiring diagram supplied by Newmar is the same on both coaches.

Thank you, John T. Your photo is really helpful!! Unless I'm missing something, it proves that my batts are wired incorrectly, as several people have suggested. Really appreciate the time you invested to post that pic.

[JasonDean]

Originally Posted by JohnT

Your battery wiring layout caught my interest. I went out to look at mine and they do not match. The wiring diagram supplied by Newmar is the same on both coaches.

John, can you confirm 100% that your Odd numbered posts are negative and Even numbered posts are positive? I'm sure that's the case, but I couldn't quite make out the symbols in your pic.

[JohnT]

Originally Posted by JasonDean

John, can you confirm 100% that your Odd numbered posts are negative and Even numbered posts are positive? I'm sure that's the case, but I couldn't quite make out the symbols in your pic.

You are correct:
1 - N
2 - P
3 - N
4 - P
5 - N
6 - P
7 - N
8 - P