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Old 04-20-2019, 09:05 PM   #1
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Batteries - Info

To preface – This forum is not just about issues we might have, or problems we need help with. It is an information place as well. With that in mind I present my take on Batteries – My experience with two of the three types (well really two types-but you will read the difference).

You purchased your RV, and most likely, but not in all cases, it came with what is commonly called lead acid, flooded cell, conventional deep cycle type battery (For this discussion we are talking the house side of the 12V system. Some upscale RV’s, and possibly some Newmar models, may have AGM (Absorbed Glass Matt) type, which is a sort of twist on the flooded cell technology. Both of those have sulfuric acid-distilled water solution, which surrounds lead plates, to create 6 or 12 Volts Direct Current. The current is produced as a byproduct of the chemical reaction of the acid and lead.

Things to consider about what would be the best type for you depends on how you use your RV.
1. Do you go from Park to Park with full hook ups, and never boondock, or spend more than a day or two without A/C Hookups (for this discussion 50A Shore Power Hookup) and/or stay in one place attached to Shore Power for several months at a time.
2. On the other hand are you boon docking for extended periods of time, depending on solar cells and the genset to keep the batteries charged up. With some trips to civilization to dump tanks, get groceries, maybe do laundry, etc.
3. Or are you someone who does some of both, two weeks in the outback, but then 2-3 weeks back in civilization?
FWIW-In almost all cases, depending on age of RV, type of use, and your level of technical expertise and the desire to “do the work” necessary to maintain the batteries and associated systems, will determine the type to use. In almost every case, if you have the money, and it’s time to replace the batteries, and they are not now AGM type, then getting AGM’s will make your maintenance chores way less.

Lead Acid regular type: Well conventional LA’s (lead acid-with fill hole & cap) give off gas (hydrogen and some acid vapor) as part of the charging process. This “stuff” will eventually coat all the surfaces of the battery compartment, which will necessitate the monthly maintenance of checking water levels, cleaning terminals, cable ends, and protecting them from the above process. To keep this post as short as possible, I am not going to detail how this should be done, if you want to know send me PM and I will outline it to you, but it would be the way I would do it, not necessarily the way you would. But that compartment should be cleaned real well annually. FWIW-The real kicker on this is discharge level, and the number of cycles (complete discharge/recharge (no less than 50%) and the LA can take and the number of cycles, which is around 300 – 400. Remember the cost per watt/cycles/discharge depth as part of all of this.

AGM type: Completely sealed – no outgassing and provided you don’t take them down less than 50% of the rated charge and recharge them soon, and they never freeze, then you can achieve up to 1000 cycles. FWIW- A battery is considered fully charged if: the temperature outside is 80F and a specific gravity is reading 1260 and has a voltage of 12.7-8 volts.

There is a new kid on the block, it’s called Lithium-Iron-Phosphate (LiFePO4). Don’t be confused with the Boeing 787, cell phones, e-cigarettes exploding, the specific combination of these elements/compounds have mitigated this issue. Although, one report I received from a leading AGM manufacturer says that many of the battery cells are made in China and shipped here, then assembled in the USA (USA Made Label). Additionally, they are made up of a large number of smaller cells, combined to make a huge one. Many little things connected into one, could cause issues, from vibration, etc. Regardless, the efficiency of these batteries cannot be dismissed. I have included some links to various YouTube presentations on this subject, you are to draw your own conclusions. I accept no liability and endorse no one, no company, and no technology. The school is out on LiFePO4 as far as I am concerned. But the statics are to put mildly very interesting, and over the next year or so, they are going to come down in price as the technology matures. One thing that can be reported on (I won’t say proved) is the actual number of cycles it can be used too, and the discharge, instead of 50% can be as high as 90% with no damage to the battery. So you have more capacity, more cycles and they are lighter.

One manufacturer that have been making noise is Battle Born, and I have the link to one YT video on how those work out, I don’t know how they are made, and if they are little pieces combined to make one large 12 Battery. They have a few sizes. Several reports of RV’ers upgrading to Lithium based batteries, are on YouTube. I am going to link two or so herein, you can watch at your leisure. I did check and they have a direct replacement to the battery that is standard on many of our motorhomes which might be the Interstate GC2-XHD-UT 6-volt golf cat battery. This is the one in my coach on order.

Links:






FWIW#2-This subject or an associated one, may have been put into the “sticky” at the top of this forum, those may have more and complete technical information. I urge all owners to dig into this stuff if you think battery replacement is near, or you have just not experienced the level of 12VDC from the battery bank you presently use. If you have battery stories, please comment to this thread, but above is provided as information for the group only. We are in this together so you help me and I help you.
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Old 04-20-2019, 09:37 PM   #2
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Thought I'd add to the knowledge base by mentioning the easy way to avoid having to do monthly maintenance and clean up of flooded cell batteries and compartments...adding mineral oil to each cell. AKA Baby oil or 3-in-1 oil.

2 oz per cell keeps the outgassing to a minimum. If your converter/charger is working well, and not chronically overcharging due to some circuit fault, you'll be able to reduce your battery maintenance to once per year. Quite a bit different then the 12 times per year mentioned by some. The oil has been used in flooded cell lead acid batteries to reduce outgassing for over 100 years...recommended by Edison himself so it's not some magic thing just invented.

And then there is the actual Edison battery. Ni-Iron with a Potassium hydroxide electrolyte. These batteries are so rugged they can last 20 years even with repeated full discharge and/or repeated charge/discharge cycles. One issue with them is the self discharge rate is relatively high, but once a user adjusts to the situation, they are very reliable. They also have a high energy density. They are particularly suited for off grid solar charging situations. Which can include RVs that tend to be off grid but have solar panels and a generator to top the batteries off on occasion if the solar is weak. They are experiencing a resurgence in popularity by off grid and RV'ers with solar.
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Old 04-21-2019, 03:46 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old-RVer View Post
To preface – This forum is not just about issues we might have, or problems we need help with. It is an information place as well. With that in mind I present my take on Batteries – My experience with two of the three types (well really two types-but you will read the difference).

You purchased your RV, and most likely, but not in all cases, it came with what is commonly called lead acid, flooded cell, conventional deep cycle type battery (For this discussion we are talking the house side of the 12V system. Some upscale RV’s, and possibly some Newmar models, may have AGM (Absorbed Glass Matt) type, which is a sort of twist on the flooded cell technology. Both of those have sulfuric acid-distilled water solution, which surrounds lead plates, to create 6 or 12 Volts Direct Current. The current is produced as a byproduct of the chemical reaction of the acid and lead.

Things to consider about what would be the best type for you depends on how you use your RV.
1. Do you go from Park to Park with full hook ups, and never boondock, or spend more than a day or two without A/C Hookups (for this discussion 50A Shore Power Hookup) and/or stay in one place attached to Shore Power for several months at a time.
2.On the other hand are you boon docking for extended periods of time, depending on solar cells and the genset to keep the batteries charged up. With some trips to civilization to dump tanks, get groceries, maybe do laundry, etc.
3.Or are you someone who does some of both, two weeks in the outback, but then 2-3 weeks back in civilization?
FWIW-In almost all cases, depending on age of RV, type of use, and your level of technical expertise and the desire to “do the work” necessary to maintain the batteries and associated systems, will determine the type to use. In almost every case, if you have the money, and it’s time to replace the batteries, and they are not now AGM type, then getting AGM’s will make your maintenance chores way less.

Lead Acid regular type: Well conventional LA’s (lead acid-with fill hole & cap) give off gas (hydrogen and some acid vapor) as part of the charging process. This “stuff” will eventually coat all the surfaces of the battery compartment, which will necessitate the monthly maintenance of checking water levels, cleaning terminals, cable ends, and protecting them from the above process. To keep this post as short as possible, I am not going to detail how this should be done, if you want to know send me PM and I will outline it to you, but it would be the way I would do it, not necessarily the way you would. But that compartment should be cleaned real well annually. FWIW-The real kicker on this is discharge level, and the number of cycles (complete discharge/recharge (no less than 50%) and the LA can take and the number of cycles, which is around 300 – 400. Remember the cost per watt/cycles/discharge depth as part of all of this.

AGM type: Completely sealed – no outgassing and provided you don’t take them down less than 50% of the rated charge and recharge them soon, and they never freeze, then you can achieve up to 1000 cycles. FWIW- A battery is considered fully charged if: the temperature outside is 80F and a specific gravity is reading 1260 and has a voltage of 12.7-8 volts.

There is a new kid on the block, it’s called Lithium-Iron-Phosphate (LiFePO4). Don’t be confused with the Boeing 787, cell phones, e-cigarettes exploding, the specific combination of these elements/compounds have mitigated this issue. Although, one report I received from a leading AGM manufacturer says that many of the battery cells are made in China and shipped here, then assembled in the USA (USA Made Label). Additionally, they are made up of a large number of smaller cells, combined to make a huge one. Many little things connected into one, could cause issues, from vibration, etc. Regardless, the efficiency of these batteries cannot be dismissed. I have included some links to various YouTube presentations on this subject, you are to draw your own conclusions. I accept no liability and endorse no one, no company, and no technology. The school is out on LiFePO4 as far as I am concerned. But the statics are to put mildly very interesting, and over the next year or so, they are going to come down in price as the technology matures. One thing that can be reported on (I won’t say proved) is the actual number of cycles it can be used too, and the discharge, instead of 50% can be as high as 90% with no damage to the battery. So you have more capacity, more cycles and they are lighter.

One manufacturer that have been making noise is Battle Born, and I have the link to one YT video on how those work out, I don’t know how they are made, and if they are little pieces combined to make one large 12 Battery. They have a few sizes. Several reports of RV’ers upgrading to Lithium based batteries, are on YouTube. I am going to link two or so herein, you can watch at your leisure. I did check and they have a direct replacement to the battery that is standard on many of our motorhomes which might be the Interstate GC2-XHD-UT 6-volt golf cat battery. This is the one in my coach on order.

Links:






FWIW#2-This subject or an associated one, may have been put into the “sticky” at the top of this forum, those may have more and complete technical information. I urge all owners to dig into this stuff if you think battery replacement is near, or you have just not experienced the level of 12VDC from the battery bank you presently use. If you have battery stories, please comment to this thread, but above is provided as information for the group only. We are in this together so you help me and I help you.
Not for nothing, but there are claims about cycle life and DOD in the videos, that don't match up to most manufactures data.

A little research will show that both deep cycle, flooded acid and AGM batteries will have comparable cycle life at about the same DOD.
500 cycles to 80% DOD and 1000 to 1200 cycles at 50% DOD.

When a seminar starts with infomation that don't align with actual data, the whole exercise becomes biased and is just marketing.

Lithium batteries are better, but at a huge cost and long and slow return in the investment.
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Old 04-21-2019, 08:06 AM   #4
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All- As mentioned I don't endorse Lithium, I was providing information. FWIW- I sent Battle Born an e-mail requesting more information on manufacturing process and are all the parts made in the USA or just assembled in the USA, big difference. I have not tested, and compared the results of the folks in the videos, it's provided for info, its your job to figure out if it is right for you. For me, the costs don't pencil out, but in 3 years when the LA's die, or need to be replaced, it might be a viable option.

Assuming, mineral oil added to top of cells will void any warranty batteries have, so keep that in mind if you do it. If it does not, I will post that herein. I will ask interstate.

If most people are like me, and I have not read a thread before, I start at the beginning. This post being very long, it would save folks trouble if you don't quote the whole thing in your reply or comment. Yes, manufacturing claims are just that, and individual results vary, the claims "sounds good", but as you say, DOD, makes a huge difference on how long a LA or AGM lasts. We don't boondock as a rule, so for us it won't work, for those who do, it may make a whole world of difference, and there are several folks who sell these, check YT for other reviews and comments, I did not link all of them, there are lots of them.
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Old 04-21-2019, 08:36 AM   #5
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there are sealed lead acid maintenace free batteries. many are labelled marine / deep cycle. yes they are a compromise. we have them and for four years i have not checked water level, added water, cleaned the tops / terminals of the batteries, or cleaned the battery compartment. they seem to still be going strong.
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Old 04-21-2019, 08:50 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Old-RVer View Post
All- As mentioned I don't endorse Lithium, I was providing information. FWIW- I sent Battle Born an e-mail requesting more information on manufacturing process and are all the parts made in the USA or just assembled in the USA, big difference. I have not tested, and compared the results of the folks in the videos, it's provided for info, its your job to figure out if it is right for you. For me, the costs don't pencil out, but in 3 years when the LA's die, or need to be replaced, it might be a viable option.

Assuming, mineral oil added to top of cells will void any warranty batteries have, so keep that in mind if you do it. If it does not, I will post that herein. I will ask interstate.

If most people are like me, and I have not read a thread before, I start at the beginning. This post being very long, it would save folks trouble if you don't quote the whole thing in your reply or comment. Yes, manufacturing claims are just that, and individual results vary, the claims "sounds good", but as you say, DOD, makes a huge difference on how long a LA or AGM lasts. We don't boondock as a rule, so for us it won't work, for those who do, it may make a whole world of difference, and there are several folks who sell these, check YT for other reviews and comments, I did not link all of them, there are lots of them.
Battle Born batteries are cylindrical design not prismatic. Think hundreds and hundreds of (larger than) AA batteries all connected together. Battleborn does not make the cells they are manufactured in China and the batteries are assembled in the USA. I don’t know of any lithium cells that are not made overseas, they have been doing it for a long time and have the process figured out.
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Old 04-21-2019, 09:01 AM   #7
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<Snip>

Assuming, mineral oil added to top of cells will void any warranty batteries have, so keep that in mind if you do it. If it does not, I will post that herein. I will ask interstate.
It's been sooooo long since I've bought a battery that was defective I don't even consider the warranty much any more. I believe that you are correct, it will void the warranty. But new batteries these days are fairly reliable.

Back in the '70's was the only time I remember a new battery I bought being bad...and that was one of those Sears refurbished batteries they cleaned up and sold as new. Remember those? They got in big trouble and paid millions in fines. After they'd made multi-millions in profits.

Anyway, what I do is wait a few months to year before I install the oil just to be sure the battery is fine.
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Old 04-21-2019, 10:42 AM   #8
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Thanks Old-RVer.

No quotes. Here’s my take on a few points thus far.

First, the idea of a return on investment for anything RV related is a misnomer. Neither the RV or any item added to it will ever increase in value or produce a dividend check. What we are talking about is the full life cycle cost of one product versus another and how that impacts the wallet over the long term.

LA and AGM are similar in regard to charge cycles and the amount of abuse they can endure. Not identical, similar. AGM requires less maintenance and is more expensive. Either can be murdered in short order with the appropriate amount of neglect.

LiFePo is about as close as we’ve come to eternal battery life. It provides more usable capacity, charges quickly, can be partially charged without impacting longevity and will hold a charge for months while in storage. Cost for equivalent capacity is roughly 5-10x that of LA.

Batteries may be the most ignored and mistreated item on an RV. Often left sitting for months without power or improperly charged by owners who believe that running the generator for a half hour in the morning and evening will
provide a full charge.

Intended usage is important. Does an owner who only stays at RV resorts really need to lug around 8 deep cycle batteries? Would 2 suffice? Or maybe a single 100ah lithium battery?

A true cost analysis will be different for everyone based on the factors listed above as well as others. We have had the coach plugged in to a 50A service since November and have noticed an increase in electricity consumption compared to being plugged in to a 15A outlet. Charging 6 deep cycle and 2 chassis batteries plus 2, 30w dehumidifiers. I’m going to experiment with setting the power share to 15A and 5A to see if there is a noticeable difference. There are many variables and it is good to have options that suit each persons needs.

FWIW: Rolls batteries, which we use for energy storage at home as part of the solar setup, recommends using only distilled water in their LA batteries.
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Old 04-21-2019, 07:33 PM   #9
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RVPioneer and All - Based on comments so far, will wait 4-6 months before putting mineral oil into cells. Then because we don't do a lot of boon docking, etc., they should last the 3 years I expect them too. Then unless battery technology just leapfrogs and costs come down (think safety as well) then, its lithium more than likely. It drives me nuts, to think our manufacturing prowess for almost the 20th century has been allowed to go overseas. I am mad as hell at WDC and US Companies for doing this, the future or our country is now in someone else’s hands, and all of us let it happen. We have no foundries left, the steel industry is mostly gone, Scott, Macintosh, Fisher, all gone, first we let Japan take it, and now China. China is hoping we fail, the dollar collapses and we have a civil war, they are waiting to pick up the pieces. Read up on 2025 Chinese policies, it should scare you to death-off my soap box. Regardless, batteries are the one point of failure in our rigs, which most folks just ignore, and one reason is the compartment is low, hard on old backs, knees, etc., and happy hour (or coffee or tea hour) is more fun than getting dirt, acid, and all the rest all over me/you/us, doing this job.
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Old 04-21-2019, 09:43 PM   #10
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Out of curiosity I searched for some info on the mineral oil legend. There is a product called Thermoil made by a company that make batteries with the same name. They recommend using the oil in their batteries and discuss the differences between Thermoil and mineral oil.

Some of what I read indicates that Thermoil batteries may not be of the highest quality. I’ll stick with distilled water.

There was a fellow awhile back who said the industry secret for LA batteries was tap water. Claimed he worked for a battery manufacturer and said that’s what the guys at the golf course use in the cart batteries. Maybe he saw them rinsing them off?

Why do you only expect to get 3 years out of you house batteries? I’d expect to get 5-7. That’s the plan right now, I’m almost 3 years in and, like you, will be looking at lithium in 2-3 years. Sure would be nice if the price comes down like many say.

What I find disconcerting is that some of our infrastructure, ie: electric generating capacity, is owned by foreign businesses.
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Old 04-21-2019, 09:59 PM   #11
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If only I'd gotten our Battle Born video out a bit sooner, we'd be featured up there

FWIW, we look at our Battle Born's, or any lithium, as an investment. Not like we'll ever see a monetary return but more like a lifestyle investment. We like to boondock. Having access to 300 usable Ah of power without all the weight and fuss of LA batteries is worth it to us.

The $3000 plus we spent on the three batteries, the new converter/charger, the new solar charge controller and all the associated bits and pieces isn't going to increase the value of our MH and we can't sell it all for what we paid. But it makes our lives easier and more carefree. Makes boondocking a bit more like regular living. That's worth something.
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Old 04-22-2019, 06:40 AM   #12
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One thing that I don't believe was mentioned here regarding Lithiums is the rapid rate at which they can be recharged. Last trip, our 2 battery bank was down 100AH, The combination of the generator and Xantrex 2kW inverter charger put 103 amps into the batteries and in an hour they were fully charged. I believe the limiting factor there was the charger. I think the BBs will take the full 1C charge current.
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Old 04-22-2019, 03:01 PM   #13
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One thing that I don't believe was mentioned here regarding Lithiums is the rapid rate at which they can be recharged. Last trip, our 2 battery bank was down 100AH, The combination of the generator and Xantrex 2kW inverter charger put 103 amps into the batteries and in an hour they were fully charged. I believe the limiting factor there was the charger. I think the BBs will take the full 1C charge current.
They can take 1C but they recommend half that. Still, you can put 200 amps into a 4 BBs. If you've got the ability to do that, solar starts to look like bad investment, especially if you're using significantly less than 200 Ah a day. We use about 120. If we had the ability to put 150 amps into our 3 BB's, we'd charge in about 45-50 minutes of generator a day or 90 minutes every other day.

Not saying solar isn't nice but unless you can charge your bank up fully on solar, you're doing generator time anyway. Investing in an inverter/charger might make more sense in the long run...maybe. Something to think about anyway.
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Old 04-22-2019, 06:08 PM   #14
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It has been 7 years since we purchased our RV and I now have to replace the house batteries. Right now I have 2 Fullriver FFD260-12 batteries installed. I have been told that I should consider getting four 6 volt batteries to replace the FFD260-12 batteries because it would be more efficient. Is there a difference in efficiency and what should I be looking for if I decide to for the four 6 volt batteries?
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