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10-23-2016, 10:17 PM
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#1
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club Tiffin Owners Club Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Byhalia, MS
Posts: 3,367
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Boost Relay Stuck
I noticed recently that it appears my boost relay that is controlled by a dash switch seems to be stuck in the closed position allowing the house batteries to always be hooked up to the chassis. I can disconnect my chassis battery completely and I still have full chassis power just as though the chassis battery was still hooked up. I'm trying to determine which relay I need. I'm attaching a picture of my electrical control box under the hood. I think the large relay on the left is the BIRD relay. It seems to be the relay that disconnects the house batteries when using the storage switch. I am guessing the boost relay is the smaller relay next to it. I can't see much of it for all the wiring and the jumper bar. I do know it is very hot to the touch all the time. This leads me to think it is the boost relay and for some reason is shorted. Am I thinking correctly here? Thanks for your ideas.
jt
__________________
2019 Tiffin Phaeton 40IH
2005 Newmar Kountry Star Gas (Sold)
2022 JL Wrangler 4xe or 2017 Harley Ultra in tow
JT, Em & the boys, Kong & Baxter (rescued grey tabbies)
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10-24-2016, 05:23 AM
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#2
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 6,909
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harleyjt-
In the following I'll use relay where a more correct term would be "solenoid."
By the picture, the "boost" or AUX START relay is the black plastic box under the bus connections to the right, to which your "??Boost Relay??" arrow points.
The BIRD is the black box to the far left.
The disconnect relay, or "salesman switch" relay, is the one you identified as "BIRD relay." As you indicate, that relay cuts off 12V power to the coach. It should not be involved in the symptom you describe.
You can see if the AUX START relay is working by unplugging from shore power, making sure the generator is off, and then pressing and releasing the AUX START switch in the dash. The relay should click. This is not the only test to perform should you suspect a problem with the relay, but we can get to those if needed; read on.
I too found charging voltages on the chassis bus with the disconnect switch in the off position and was puzzled, until I figured out:
1) the charging logic will kick in whenever there's a charging source, and
2) the chassis and house battery buses (to which the AUX START relay is connected) are "downstream" of the disconnect switches
It happens I was checking while the coach was plugged into shore power. The converter was charging the house batteries, the chassis batteries were "low" (actually 0 volts, as the disconnect was set to "off"), and the BIRD happily activated the AUX START relay to "charge" the chassis batteries, thereby making the chassis battery bus live.
So, does the symptom occur when the coach is unplugged from shore power?
__________________
Mark
2008 Holiday Rambler Admiral 30PDD (Ford F-53 chassis)
2009 Honda Fit Sport
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10-24-2016, 05:26 AM
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#3
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Port Dover, Ontario
Posts: 466
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The BIRD relay is the black box to the left.
Bi Directional Isolator Relay Delay.
Picks up the big solenoid.
These can overheat and seize up in the open or closed position.
Remove to coil wire from the big solenoid and see if it drops out.
The other relay is probably the coach disconnect relay.
I was overheating these contactors out every two years until I installed a small bulb in series. The bulb has low resistance when cold to slam the contacts closed but shares the voltage when warm. I read that tip on this forum, what a simple great idea.
__________________
2009 Monaco Monarch 33SFS...Jeep TJ
Wintering in Apache Junction. Summer in Ontario.
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10-24-2016, 05:35 AM
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#4
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Foley AL
Posts: 7,138
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The BIRD is a controller and is on the left. The actual Boost Solenoid is the same as the BIRD Solenoid ... it is dual purpose. The Solenoid is picked by either the BIRD or the Boost Switch on the dash. If the Solenoid is actually picked you should be able to find the source by disconnecting the Pick wire (usually purple). It's also possible the contacts are welded inside the Solenoid.
__________________
2005 Newmar Essex 4502, 2013 Caddy SRX
1997 HR Endeavor 37, CAT, 1996 Geo Tracker
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10-24-2016, 05:47 AM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 35,317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harleyjt
I noticed recently that it appears my boost relay that is controlled by a dash switch seems to be stuck in the closed position allowing the house batteries to always be hooked up to the chassis. I can disconnect my chassis battery completely and I still have full chassis power just as though the chassis battery was still hooked up. I'm trying to determine which relay I need. I'm attaching a picture of my electrical control box under the hood. I think the large relay on the left is the BIRD relay. It seems to be the relay that disconnects the house batteries when using the storage switch. I am guessing the boost relay is the smaller relay next to it. I can't see much of it for all the wiring and the jumper bar. I do know it is very hot to the touch all the time. This leads me to think it is the boost relay and for some reason is shorted. Am I thinking correctly here? Thanks for your ideas.
jt
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Did you do this test with the MH plugged in to shore power ?
The relay ( solenoid ), being by-directional controlled, could be activated by the house battery charging source.
If it was on shore power, pull the plug, run a few things to knock off the surface charge and try your test again.
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10-24-2016, 07:14 AM
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#6
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: FT on the Road
Posts: 3,829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harris155
The BIRD relay is the black box to the left.
Bi Directional Isolator Relay Delay.
Picks up the big solenoid.
These can overheat and seize up in the open or closed position.
Remove to coil wire from the big solenoid and see if it drops out.
The other relay is probably the coach disconnect relay.
I was overheating these contactors out every two years until I installed a small bulb in series. The bulb has low resistance when cold to slam the contacts closed but shares the voltage when warm. I read that tip on this forum, what a simple great idea.
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These seem to be problematic across many models and manufacturers.
Is there a thread or wiring diagram of what you did?
__________________
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Cheers!
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10-24-2016, 08:13 AM
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#7
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Foley AL
Posts: 7,138
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Out of curiosity, if an RV is on Shore Power, why would you use the Disconnect Switches ?
__________________
2005 Newmar Essex 4502, 2013 Caddy SRX
1997 HR Endeavor 37, CAT, 1996 Geo Tracker
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10-24-2016, 10:48 AM
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#8
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Moderator Emeritus
Nor'easters Club Workhorse Chassis Owner iRV2 No Limits Club
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 30,785
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This link found in QT's # 3 will show solenoids operation.
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10-24-2016, 01:21 PM
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#9
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club Tiffin Owners Club Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Byhalia, MS
Posts: 3,367
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007 - Thanks for the link, thats good info.
Others - Yes, I disconnected shore power, and had the chassis battery disconnected. Generator not running. House batteries and chassis batteries are in good shape and fully charged. I still had voltage to chassis with the chassis battery disconnected. When I operated the salesman switch the relay opened and all went dead. I think I mislabeled the large relay - according to l1v3fr33ord1 it is the disconnect relay. I knew the BIRD controller was the unit on the left. Again, according to l1v3fr33ord1 the smaller relay on the right is the aux start relay that appears to be stuck as it does not click and is always closed. So it would appear my aux start relay is stuck. I do remember I had to use it some time ago when the chassis battery was dead, and it didn't want to engage. After several attempts with the battery boost switch, it finally engaged and the engine started. I don't think it ever disengaged. As I said, the relay is hot to the touch all the time. I'm thinking I need a new "boost relay" or "aux start" relay, whichever the proper terminology is. Based on the responses, I think I have it pretty well diagnosed. Thanks for all the responses.
jt
__________________
2019 Tiffin Phaeton 40IH
2005 Newmar Kountry Star Gas (Sold)
2022 JL Wrangler 4xe or 2017 Harley Ultra in tow
JT, Em & the boys, Kong & Baxter (rescued grey tabbies)
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10-24-2016, 01:29 PM
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#10
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club Tiffin Owners Club Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Byhalia, MS
Posts: 3,367
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007 - Thanks for the link, thats good info.
Others - Yes, I disconnected shore power, and had the chassis battery disconnected. Generator not running. House batteries and chassis batteries are in good shape and fully charged. I still had voltage to chassis with the chassis battery disconnected. When I operated the salesman switch the relay opened and all went dead. I think I mislabeled the large relay - according to l1v3fr33ord1 it is the disconnect relay or solenoid. I knew the BIRD controller was the unit on the left. Again, according to l1v3fr33ord1 the smaller relay on the right is the aux start relay that appears to be stuck as it does not click and is always closed. So it would appear my aux start relay is stuck. I do remember I had to use it some time ago when the chassis battery was dead, and it didn't want to engage. After several attempts with the battery boost switch, it finally engaged and the engine started. I don't think it ever disengaged. As I said, the relay is hot to the touch all the time. I'm thinking I need a new "boost relay" or "aux start" relay, whichever the proper terminology is. Based on the responses, I think I have it pretty well diagnosed. Thanks for all the responses.
jt
__________________
2019 Tiffin Phaeton 40IH
2005 Newmar Kountry Star Gas (Sold)
2022 JL Wrangler 4xe or 2017 Harley Ultra in tow
JT, Em & the boys, Kong & Baxter (rescued grey tabbies)
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10-24-2016, 01:37 PM
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#11
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club Tiffin Owners Club Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Byhalia, MS
Posts: 3,367
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I guess this would be the properly labeled diagram.
__________________
2019 Tiffin Phaeton 40IH
2005 Newmar Kountry Star Gas (Sold)
2022 JL Wrangler 4xe or 2017 Harley Ultra in tow
JT, Em & the boys, Kong & Baxter (rescued grey tabbies)
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10-24-2016, 06:37 PM
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#12
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club Tiffin Owners Club Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Byhalia, MS
Posts: 3,367
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Took the relay off and it wasn't stuck. Put it back on and hit the switch once and it stuck on. After a few minutes I realized it had opened. Now working properly for a while and then stuck again. Several minutes later it opened up again. Working properly again. Go figure. It has to be sticking internally. Has anyone else had one act this way?
__________________
2019 Tiffin Phaeton 40IH
2005 Newmar Kountry Star Gas (Sold)
2022 JL Wrangler 4xe or 2017 Harley Ultra in tow
JT, Em & the boys, Kong & Baxter (rescued grey tabbies)
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10-24-2016, 10:11 PM
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#13
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Moderator Emeritus
Nor'easters Club Workhorse Chassis Owner iRV2 No Limits Club
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 30,785
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Can you check for iron file-lings near magnets maybe jamming the plunger.
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10-24-2016, 10:26 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club Tiffin Owners Club Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Byhalia, MS
Posts: 3,367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by "007"
Can you check for iron file-lings near magnets maybe jamming the plunger.
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Good idea. That would make a lot of sense. Not sure I want to remove it again and try taking it apart. I looked at it closely when I had it out and it appears it really isn't made for disassembly. The metal base is a crimped on affair. Not sure I would be able to get it back together and functional. I may try it anyway. If I do, I'll post results. I may just replace it next spring and be done with it.
jt
__________________
2019 Tiffin Phaeton 40IH
2005 Newmar Kountry Star Gas (Sold)
2022 JL Wrangler 4xe or 2017 Harley Ultra in tow
JT, Em & the boys, Kong & Baxter (rescued grey tabbies)
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