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Old 01-28-2019, 10:15 PM   #1
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COLD!!! Starter? What have I missed? long post, quick questions

I'm going to do a thorough background on this post. Usually I am told I don't give enough information to answer my question. I'm a total newbie, so I'm learning. My questions are at the end of the post.

I've never owned an RV before, but I've been researching online for about 7 months. I thought I'd be good to go - but researching and doing seem to be two very different experiences!

Three weeks ago I bought and picked up my new-to-me 2000 Newmar Dutch Star DP 3351 RV in Green Bay WI, bought 6 new Michelin x line energy z tires, and drove it to Madison to take a day at the RV school that my inspector runs.

Then I parked the RV a few days at the Days Inn Madison while I started picking up supplies.

On the second day parked, when I went out to the RV to start her, she wouldn't start. I hadn't known to turn the battery switch down by the inverter off. I got it started finally - thank you Coach-Net. The guys that came to jump it got it started, but told me that the starter had been frozen and they'd needed to hammer it to get it to go.

I got a front end alignment - the guys at Madison Springs told me they couldn't do rear alignments - turned off the battery shutoff when I parked at the motel that night, and the next morning everything started just fine (after I remembered to turn the batteries back on).

On my way home, I stopped off at a Spartan/Cummins Service Center and got my fuel filter and water separator replaced (I had a red light on the dash that the previous owner said was fuel filter). Then I drove her home to Minnetonka, MN.

10 days ago I dropped her off at my local Cummins Service Center, where I had the engine, transmission, and generator fully serviced, replaced the 4 cracking air bags and I replaced the 2 old wet batteries with 2 AGM chassis batteries. I also took care of a recall on the air compressor - now she has a new air compressor. While it was there I asked them to check the starter to make sure it was in good working order, given it's previous frozen and hammered event. They said it was ok.

So the RV should be in tip-top shape mechanically as well as inside she's beautiful.

I did a run through with the tech before I left to refresh my memory of where everything is (and had my Son video it this time) and to make sure all the fluids were topped up (I drove away from a car service once and they hadn't added the fluids - it was bone dry).

I got her home on Thursday night, 4 days ago. I turned off the battery shutoff. I didn't think I needed to plug it in if it had full batteries, even in frozen weather.

Saturday I wanted to charge my batteries because cold weather was coming and I wanted to plug her in with full batteries. So I tried to start the generator. When I tried to turn the generator on, it cranked over chugging massively for about two seconds, then stopped turning over. Subsequent tries had it almost turning over less and less frequently and had that running-down ur ur ur sound. I had used the bottom half of the button to warm it, I heard the fuel pump pumping, but it only came close to starting one other time before I gave up.

So, being a newbie and not knowing for sure that the generator should start without the engine, I tried to start the engine. The gauges flip flopped, but when I turned the key, it was just the ur ur ur sound, never turned over. Tried several more times, but then I went over to the wall battery monitor and checked the batteries' statuses, and it said the batteries were only half full.

With some assistance from this forum, I plugged the RV into my home garage's 15amp outlet (gfi checked) via a 50' 10-gauge extension cord, thru a 15 to 30amp adapter, a 30 to 50amp adapter, the Progressive Ind Smart Surge Protector (green and blue lights) to the 50amp service cord, and in the end I did hear the transfer switch in the electric bay whirring.

I didn't want to leave the dogbones and surge protector on the ground since they didn't reach the electrical bay, so I opened my car rear door, and all the adapters and the connector to the RV are on the back seat.

Oh, and I plugged-in the cord hanging next to an outlet marked 'engine block' located in the electrical bay. I hope it was the engine block heater.

Outside Conditions:
*During the last week Highs: low single digits, Lows: -2 to -12 F

*The next two days are going to be record breaking cold: Highs: -6s, Lows: -30 to -50s, yes actual temps F.

I have 2 brand new AGM chassis batteries. My 4 house batteries are older 6Volt golf cart batteries. I have a 2000 watt original Freedom 458 Series Combi Inverter/Charger.

I didn't try to start the RV today, it's just too cold.

Questions (finally):

1) Does this sound like the starter is frozen again and hence the gen and the engine won't start? or Batteries? Or something else?

2) If it's the starter, what do I do to keep it from freezing? Is a starter supposed to freeze?

3) If it's the batteries, why would they be low, since I drove it straight home from the shop and turned the battery shutoff off? In addition, I thought I don't have to have my RV plugged in even in frigid weather if the batteries were topped up. Am I correct in this?


4) I substituted the 2 new AGM batteries for the old wet ones. I didn't change any charging profile anywhere. Could this be why the batteries were low?


and,

5) I'm getting Front&Rear alignment done soon. I will be getting new house batteries as soon as I figure out what system I want to use (I want it to 'plug and play' with solar panels at some point in the near future). Other than that, is there any Service I haven't done, that I should? I want to start out with a mechanically well-maintained RV.

6) what do I do that I am not doing to protect the RV from the extreme cold? She is fully winterized as far as the normal process goes. I'm unsure what I have to do other than plug it in for the engine block heater to work, and what exact systems does it heat? Just the injectors?

I feel like I'm missing somethings really obvious.

Thanks in advance, help is deeply appreciated!
Cindy
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Old 01-28-2019, 10:45 PM   #2
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My first thought is that when batteries get really cold, they lose as much as 60% of their capacity. And, when engines are cold, they can be twice as hard to start. That's a difficult combination to overcome. I would leave the batteries connected to the charger at all times.

Sounds like you have the engine block heater plugged in, but do you have it turned on and, is it working? I don't know your specific coach, but most have a switch in the dash area to turn the block heater on.

As cold as it is where you're at, I would try to find a way to keep a little heat in the coach...or, at least, in the battery compartment. You won't be able to run a powerful heater AND the block heater on a 15A circuit, but you could probably put a 100W incandescent light bulb in the battery compartment. It is surprising how much heat an incandescent bulb can radiate in a closed area. Be sure the bulb is not in contact with any surfaces in the battery compartment as it could scorch something. If you can find a clamp-on work light, they work well.

Good luck.

TJ
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Old 01-28-2019, 11:11 PM   #3
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Welcome to the fun of owning a diesel engine. When it this cold diesel engine are always hard to start they are very high compression engines. The oil in the engine gets real thick when it gets cold so it takes more energy to turn it over and get it going fast enough to start. You should always plug the block heater in as soon as you shut the engine off, while the oil is hot. When it is as cold as you say it is you will need to warm up the engine with a nibco heater aimed at the engine block with a tent made out of a tarp to direct and keep the heat in. You may also have a problems with your fuel jelling. My dad always put 5 gal. Of gas in with 100 gal of diesel fuel to keep it from jelling. It may take 2 or 3 hours to get it warmed up enough for it to start. I hope this helps.
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Old 01-29-2019, 01:03 AM   #4
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I think Jim gave you some good advice. I will also compliment you on doing a good job of getting everything serviced and the coach up to date.

Somewhere in your inside power panel, you should hopefully have some type of display telling you how many amps you're drawing when things are turned on. I used my block heater for the first time yesterday. I wanted to make sure it was working. I plugged it in and then went inside and turned it on. I could see on my power panel, it was pulling 8 amps...so it was working.

Personally, I think you really need to wait for warmer weather and go through all of your battery connections, battery condition and settings for charging. The cold weather could be the issue with a marginal battery or starter. You might think about removing the starter, finding a rebuild shop, and let them test it. Probably original, making it 19 years old.
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Old 01-29-2019, 04:39 AM   #5
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Your battery cutoff switch will need to be turned on while plugged in to charge your batteries. Another portable battery charger could be used to confirm all your batteries are getting a charge. If you have the option to turn your inverter off while keeping the converter on that would help reduce parisidic loads.
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Old 01-29-2019, 11:40 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvs4602 View Post
You may also have a problems with your fuel jelling. My dad always put 5 gal. Of gas in with 100 gal of diesel fuel to keep it from jelling.
I strongly suggest NOT adding gasoline...in any amount...to diesel fuel. Too many potential bad things can happen! There are many anti-gel products on the market if you feel you need them. Any auto parts store or truck stop will have a selection.

TJ
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Old 01-29-2019, 11:41 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwert66 View Post
Your battery cutoff switch will need to be turned on while plugged in to charge your batteries. Another portable battery charger could be used to confirm all your batteries are getting a charge. If you have the option to turn your inverter off while keeping the converter on that would help reduce parisidic loads.
Good points!

TJ
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Old 01-29-2019, 11:47 AM   #8
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I think your engine block heater along with your charger may be pushing a 15A circuit. Maybe charge your batteries up first, then plug in your block heater for a few hours.
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Old 01-29-2019, 12:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
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You may also have a problems with your fuel jelling. My dad always put 5 gal. Of gas in with 100 gal of diesel fuel to keep it from jelling.
DO NOT ADD GAS TO DIESEL FUEL. It my have been OK in your dads day but modern refining methods have changed the formulation of both diesel and gas. The fuel is the lubricant for the diesel injector pumps, and injector pump design has gotten "tighter" over the years. Clearances are a lot smaller, and an insufficiently lubricated injector pump will self-destruct. There are forum members that can share how much it costs to replace an injector pump on the road....
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Old 01-29-2019, 12:31 PM   #10
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Hi - Hope this is of some help.
1) Does this sound like the starter is frozen again and hence the gen and the engine won't start? or Batteries? Or something else? Not a clue what that refers to but the coach engine and the generator starter generally do not use the same battery source. BTW AGM's are not the best choice for starting batteries. They are better for the house loads however. You need to run a load test on the house batteries and that will likely give you an answer to the generator starting being so sluggish.

2) If it's the starter, what do I do to keep it from freezing? Is a starter supposed to freeze? Please see above.

3) If it's the batteries, why would they be low, since I drove it straight home from the shop and turned the battery shutoff off? In addition, I thought I don't have to have my RV plugged in even in frigid weather if the batteries were topped up. Am I correct in this? If your coach has an inverter switching off the batteries at a disconnect will not keep the house batteries from running down. You need to turn off the inverter as well. If the coach is to sit for more than a few days turn off the inverter. In extreme weather you may do well to bring the batteries inside and place them out of direct contact with the ground while trickle charging them. (Now you know why I don't live in Maine anymore).


4) I substituted the 2 new AGM batteries for the old wet ones. I didn't change any charging profile anywhere. Could this be why the batteries were low? The charging profile is for the house batteries so no effect there. AGM for starting is not the best choice.


and,

5) I'm getting Front&Rear alignment done soon. I will be getting new house batteries as soon as I figure out what system I want to use (I want it to 'plug and play' with solar panels at some point in the near future). Other than that, is there any Service I haven't done, that I should? I want to start out with a mechanically well-maintained RV. Depends on the mileage but consider repacking of bearings, checking of brake components (S cams get skipped a lot in routine service) and air and hydraulic leaks. You have already covered the major items.

6) what do I do that I am not doing to protect the RV from the extreme cold? She is fully winterized as far as the normal process goes. I'm unsure what I have to do other than plug it in for the engine block heater to work, and what exact systems does it heat? Just the injectors? The engine block heater might be one of two types. Either it heats the water jacket via an electric heat rod or it heats the oil via an electric heater. The water jacket heater is more common. In your type of weather it can take several hours to warm the block so think ahead. No need to run it until you know you will be using the coach and then it is only needed if the temps are below 32 degrees.



Hope this helps.


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Old 01-29-2019, 12:36 PM   #11
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Like many have said already those temps are going to make it very hard to start whether it’s your Engine or generator. If you don’t plan on driving it i wouldn’t bother starting it. Letting it idle is not good enough and with those temps in the negatives I don’t think it would make it to operating temp at idle better to put a load on it. Your generator starts off your coach batteries if they are low and it’s cold it’s going to be hard to start. Turn your inverter off form the inverter itself in the bay compartment. That way you don’t have parasitic loads draining your coach batteries. Keeping your coach plugged will keep your batteries topped off both coach and chassis. Other than that sounds like you’re on your way to having a great running coach.
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Old 01-29-2019, 12:45 PM   #12
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Given the temperatures you're experiencing, you may not be able to start the engine.


When I lived in northern Wisconsin and had a diesel truck which I had to store outside the block heater was always plugged in at night. In addition your coach needs to be plugged in to keep the batteries, engine start, house and generator at full charge. Charging does warm the batteries.



If you have a hydronic heater, if the diesel fuel will flow to it, you may be able to use this heater to heat the engine block.



However, even with these charges the coach may not start. The fuel will likely become too thick to flow to the engine.


Suggest you search for winter operations of diesel engines in Alaska to learn more.



Or, do what we did, and move the Florida ;-)
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Old 01-29-2019, 01:16 PM   #13
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Welcome to the forum, you have been a busy man with your 2000 Newmar a good learning experience.
In QT's # 3 at end of first page links by SPK64 will help you for other items you will most likely need help with in your 2000, different coach but same parts needed.
Another link you will also need will be this one and all the links below in my signature follow me all the time for your use.
All good info from members previously just a thought if you have been traveling on road through rains much of it is blowing around your engine compartment and when things settle and may freeze problems can result, any time you want to use a hammer use it gently when ever you use it, your wife's hair dryer maybe even better.
Enjoy your adventure and safe travels.

Enjoy your Newmar and safe travels.
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Old 01-29-2019, 01:43 PM   #14
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Is there power to the Engine Block outlet? Plug a portable electrical device (night light or blow dryer or lamp) into that outlet and see if the outlet powers your portable electrical device. Also, your block heater heats the block -- duh -- but more specifically, it heats the coolant in the block. They make a magnet mounted electrical heater. https://www.amazon.com/Kats-1160-300.../dp/B000I8YOR4
Stich this beauty on the bottom of your oil pan and plug it in. Give it 5 hours to heat that glob that used to be your oil. Stick another one to the bottom of your genset motor's oil pan.
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