Community Forums

KenSherwin · 09-21-2018, 10:04 AM

In the Comfort Drive Guide sticky, a question was raised about using it with a gas engine. I felt the discussion was worth having its own thread so this is it.

A review of the comments for those who don't want to go look for them:

dmatt13:
Gonna jump in here to ask a question....is the comfort drive included on the Bay Star coaches or just the higher end ones? We are looking at the Bay Star 3014. Thx

lass:
Standard on diesels only. It is not available on the gas models.

dmatt13:
Ok, thanks. Funny, it's the smaller gas models that have the handling issues so you'd think that's where they would use it.

me:
The CD requires the J1939 data bus to read what's going on in the coach so it can respond correctly. I'm not sure but I think that's only available on the diesels.

I'm also speculating that the smaller gassers are so price competitive that the CD isn't really affordable.

Dav L:
Ken, what J1939 data is CD using?
I suspect the equivalent is available on the Gas bus. Certainly would require some firmware changes.

I have a suspicion the real reason CD is diesel only is to keep the diesel as the premium offering.

And now for the new comments:

me:
It needs ground speed, yaw rate, lateral acceleration, vehicle position in the lane, external steering command (for some new optional features), driver controlled efforts, and the entire software diagnostics system (both in the CD and in all the test equipment).

You're right. The problem is in the software. To make this happen, the following things would have to happen:

1. Somebody has to learn the new communications standard, including all the variations that various potential customers might either require or prohibit.

2. Somebody has to make all the required changes in the CD, the lab test machines, the production assembly/test machines, the Engineering diagnostics tools, and the field diagnostics tool.

3. At least one test vehicle must be procured, either rented or purchased, and the CD retrofitted into it. (See the guided tour Q&A about retrofitting. Short version: you need a REALLY good reason to do it.)

4. Somebody has to pay for every bit of this work. I would be vastly surprised if the total cost (not price to the customer), not counting the test vehicle, would be less than $750,000.

5. Lastly, somebody would have to convince the ZF management that they should stop their people from working on their current and planned projects to work on this.

Making all this happen is going to require an earth-stopping event. Highly unlikely.

Of course, somebody could form their own company to do all this and make a fortune. I've made this same suggestion concerning retrofitting CD to non-CD coaches and nobody has taken me up on it ……. and that is only simple hardware!

saddlesore · 09-21-2018, 10:13 AM

The biggest issue with the gasser(s) is that (with very few exceptions) they are on steel spring ride.. The vaulted CD is for full air ride chassis me thinks.

KenSherwin · 09-21-2018, 10:20 AM

I've put it on several trucks with steel front springs. All the benefits are still there

knightstorm · 09-21-2018, 10:35 AM

Ford has the necessary technology in their adaptive steering system. That system is installed in the steering wheel and would probably be the technology used if Ford made it available for the F53. They are already using it in the super duty (F250-450) trucks. I suspect they could use existing hardware components with new software.

The suspension is still using the same spring setup in have in my horse cart. That is a whole other issue.

saddlesore · 09-21-2018, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knightstorm

Ford has the necessary technology in their adaptive steering system. That system is installed in the steering wheel and would probably be the technology used if Ford made it available for the F53. They are already using it in the super duty (F250-450) trucks. I suspect they could use existing hardware components with new software.

The suspension is still using the same spring setup in have in my horse cart. That is a whole other issue.

OH!!! I thought that it was connected to the chassis suspension .. sorry for interrupting the thought train..

Dav L · 09-21-2018, 03:31 PM

"It needs ground speed, yaw rate, lateral acceleration, vehicle position in the lane, external steering command (for some new optional features), driver controlled efforts, and the entire software diagnostics system (both in the CD and in all the test equipment)."

Ok, ground speed, check. Exists easily.

Yaw rate and lateral accel can be an aftermarket box. Cheap stuff.

Vehicle position in lane - that gets tough if it doesn't have that already. Gentex stuff.

Not sure what external steering command is. Or driver controlled efforts.

With regards to diagnostics - that could be in the aftermarket box and not necessarily on the OE data bus (which would be better).

What is the hardware required? Steering column above the power steering gear? Where is the driver input sensed? A pot on the column? Senses movement or also torque?

Just curious and for the love of the engineering.

KenSherwin · 09-21-2018, 03:52 PM

All this is discussed in the Guided Tour.

dmatt13 · 09-21-2018, 06:34 PM

Ok, having not really understood what the CD entails I will say....WOW. It really would benefit the coaches on the shorter gas chassis, but the cost does seem prohibitive. May just have to bite the bullet and get a diesel

DD788Snipe · 09-21-2018, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KenSherwin

In the Comfort Drive Guide sticky, a question was raised about using it with a gas engine. I felt the discussion was worth having its own thread so this is it.

A review of the comments for those who don't want to go look for them:

dmatt13:
Gonna jump in here to ask a question....is the comfort drive included on the Bay Star coaches or just the higher end ones? We are looking at the Bay Star 3014. Thx

lass:
Standard on diesels only. It is not available on the gas models.

dmatt13:
Ok, thanks. Funny, it's the smaller gas models that have the handling issues so you'd think that's where they would use it.

me:
The CD requires the J1939 data bus to read what's going on in the coach so it can respond correctly. I'm not sure but I think that's only available on the diesels.

I'm also speculating that the smaller gassers are so price competitive that the CD isn't really affordable.

Dav L:
Ken, what J1939 data is CD using?
I suspect the equivalent is available on the Gas bus. Certainly would require some firmware changes.

I have a suspicion the real reason CD is diesel only is to keep the diesel as the premium offering.

And now for the new comments:

me:
It needs ground speed, yaw rate, lateral acceleration, vehicle position in the lane, external steering command (for some new optional features), driver controlled efforts, and the entire software diagnostics system (both in the CD and in all the test equipment).

You're right. The problem is in the software. To make this happen, the following things would have to happen:

1. Somebody has to learn the new communications standard, including all the variations that various potential customers might either require or prohibit.

2. Somebody has to make all the required changes in the CD, the lab test machines, the production assembly/test machines, the Engineering diagnostics tools, and the field diagnostics tool.

3. At least one test vehicle must be procured, either rented or purchased, and the CD retrofitted into it. (See the guided tour Q&A about retrofitting. Short version: you need a REALLY good reason to do it.)

4. Somebody has to pay for every bit of this work. I would be vastly surprised if the total cost (not price to the customer), not counting the test vehicle, would be less than $750,000.

5. Lastly, somebody would have to convince the ZF management that they should stop their people from working on their current and planned projects to work on this.

Making all this happen is going to require an earth-stopping event. Highly unlikely.

Of course, somebody could form their own company to do all this and make a fortune. I've made this same suggestion concerning retrofitting CD to non-CD coaches and nobody has taken me up on it ……. and that is only simple hardware!

BlueOx sells an add on system that works somewhat like CD. Cost around 1K.
http://www.blueox.com/chassis-perfor...ering-control/

dmatt13 · 09-21-2018, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DD788Snipe

BlueOx sells an add on system that works somewhat like CD. Cost around 1K.
TruCenter Steering Control | Blue Ox | Blue Ox

I like the concept. The drop down only goes to 2017. I assume it will be updated since 2018 chassis are being used now for the 2019 coaches. Gonna look into the reviews on this.