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Old 10-30-2014, 09:17 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcangw View Post
007, thanks very much for the video link.



I hope you are right regarding my short coach probably not having an out of square problem. I have been leveling, then deploying as instructed in my manual without any problems. Now, after reading all this discussion about deploying FWS, I will visually inspect slide wall gaps outside before deploying.



With that said, I am still very confused about all this. Like I indicated above, it seems to me that Newmar has a faulty design if in fact the chassis rails flex and cause out of square problem in slide opening when sitting on leveling jacks. It also seems to me that the design problem can be readily corrected with either a stiffer frame or additional leveling jacks (properly positioned).



Now, regarding your comments/instructions pertaining to AUTO leveling, with all due respect, I question your comments on several levels.



I don't see the point of an AUTO leveling system if you can't use it (you have advised that manual leveling should be used). Really, I don't get it.



What is the relevance of "overextending" the jacks, and how does one "overextend" them? it seems clear to me that once the jacks are used to level the coach, how far they are extended is irrelevant, UNLESS extending the jacks so far that the suspension/tires are not taking any of the load results in the chassis flexing - and, like I have indicated, it seems to me that if flexing occurs in such situations as to cause out of scare slide openings, then Newmar has a faulty design. No customer would ever expect, and Newmar gives no indication in their literature, that using the leveling jacks to level the coach (i.e., using them for their intended, advertised purpose), either manually or automatically, would result in a situation where the slides could not be deployed properly.



Finally, your statement "Jacks are only to stabilize your platform support of your chassis" makes no sense to me. My HWH control panel expressly states, "HWH Computerized Levelers". HWH's website also clearly states their jacks "level" AND stabilize the coach. IMHO, if Newmar's frame can't handle the computerized, automatic leveling that HWH provides, then Newmar should not provide the HWH system in their coaches.

I have been reading the warnings to not use Auto Level on this forum with great confusion.

We have a 2015 Ventana 4037 on order. If I had not joined this forum, I would have simply hit Auto Level under all circumstances as I have been doing for 5 years with the same HWH system on my current Winnebago DP on the same Freightliner chassis. Is there something unique with the way that Newmar builds their coach that preempts the use of Auto Level on non-level terrain on the same chassis with the same leveling system as Winnebago does?

What is the Newmar factory advice on the use of Auto Level from those that have gotten recent instructions from Newmar directly?

Excuse all the questions. I'm sure I'll have many more. I've still got 2-3 months to get this figured out in my mind.
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Old 10-30-2014, 09:39 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by "007" View Post
Your 36' coach may not have that much of a problem deploying your FWS with jacks down as you are using. 43' and 45' is a different story.
If jacks were placed in center rails of chassis possibly may lift center of chassis too high causing more of a problem.
Jacks come in different weight classifications for weights they are to lift.
Every Newmar chassis is built with a flat chassis bed and reinforced to stay that way if you do not over extend your jacks.
Jacks are only to stabilize your platform support of your chassis.
On our 2002 Spartan DSDP 4090 the jacks are sized and intended to fully level the chassis, not just stabilize it.
Spartan says so
HWH says so
Newmar says so
Reyco Granning says so
In fact they all say there is no problem with having the front tires completely off the ground for extended periods (but not the rears due to the parking brakes), like 6 months at a time with no troubles after 12 years of doing it.
YMMV!
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Old 10-30-2014, 09:59 PM   #31
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That's interesting what are you doing with jacks on the pad and having slight lift to the coach chassis, its stable so it does not rock.
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Old 10-30-2014, 10:08 PM   #32
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This thread I posted explains my thoughts on AUTO LEVEL down near bottom of post.

The question on using AUTO LEVEL can be seen in some of the links of chassis' out of alignment in a four slide coach or one with a FWS its best to request a level site or level your coach manually as explained how the jack systems work in links provided.

USE OF AUTO LEVEL with excess slope warning ---read in this link---- the paragraph on warning on page MP34.2751 what to do on a unleveled pad or site location.

If my take on AUTO LEVEL IS INCORRECT than I welcome anyone's comments to inform people that need to know, why it may not be correct.
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Old 10-31-2014, 01:29 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_D View Post
On our 2002 Spartan DSDP 4090 the jacks are sized and intended to fully level the chassis, not just stabilize it.
Spartan says so
HWH says so
Newmar says so
Reyco Granning says so
In fact they all say there is no problem with having the front tires completely off the ground for extended periods (but not the rears due to the parking brakes), like 6 months at a time with no troubles after 12 years of doing it.
YMMV!
I myself have not read anything from any manufacturer that states not to lift rear tires off the ground with the jacks because of a concern about loss of braking ability. If Newmar says so, I would really appreciate someone telling me where to find that instruction. Absent any such instruction from Newmar, I don't see any problem with lifting the braked rear axle off the ground. My reasoning follows.

Fifth wheels and travel trailers can be obtained with leveling jacks that will lift the whole darn coach off the ground, and those towables don't have parking brakes. I myself had an Excel Winslow travel trailer with hydraulic leveling jacks. The manufacturer of Excel, Peterson Industries prides itself in the strength of its chassis. Upon my inquiry, the manufacturer told me I could lift all the wheels off the ground with the jacks without any concern, including concern regarding twisting the chassis/frame. Peterson never mentioned anything about having to brake the wheels.

As I see it, a coach on leveling jacks (as long as the jacks are strong enough) is no different than a house on stilts. With the weight of the coach bearing down on four jack pads, there is more than enough friction at the pad/ground interface to keep the coach from going anywhere when considering the very minimal slopes one would ever encounter when leveling their coach. Furthermore, the contact area between the four jack pads and the ground is very similar to the contact area of the four rear tires; i.e., very similar friction forces to keep the coach from slipping. In other words, if the coach is going to slip and head downhill on the jack pads, it would also slip on the braked tires. The only variable that would possibly alter this conclusion is the coefficient of friction. The tires likely have a higher coefficient than the metal jack pads, thereby resulting in the tires having a higher friction force to resist slipping. However, considering the loose material that a coach is often parked on (loose gravel for example), I really doubt that the coefficient of friction is the weak point.
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Old 10-31-2014, 04:29 AM   #34
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OK I guess its back to school time for some of us this jack system for example if read through out the PDF has highlighted WARNING's to chock your wheels, do you have chocks?, make sure PARKING BRAKE is engaged, NO ONE be under or near slides and jacks when in operation to name a few.
My way of thinking if you engage your parking brake, chock your wheels, its for the purpose of making sure your vehicle will not move when vehicle is on your jacks.
Warning to stay away from vehicle or under it is because with a 26,000 pound vehicle or more while on your jacks and you say rear tires can be off the ground, so what use is the parking brakes or chocks for rear wheels, why even bother to use them if the rear tires are off the ground.
As I have stated before my jack system is to STABLE MY CHASSIS PLATFORM so I have no movement while walking through out my coach, not to lift chassis off the ground.
Its not possible to lift the REAR tires of the ground anyway the suspension will over stretch the jack systems limits of lift.

I think its time maybe for some to follow the instructions in this link and find all the possible information on systems in your coach their operations and warnings from jacks systems to your heating systems and every item in your coach.

I have added this info on AUTO LEVEL excess slope information.

I'm not the expert here all the information I put on the forums is from what Newmar has supplied in their COM_NET link, what I have read from far more knowledgeable people on this forum and 35 year of working with people and their troubling MH's.
I can find these things for you but I will not be here for ever.
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Old 10-31-2014, 08:34 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcangw View Post
I myself have not read anything from any manufacturer that states not to lift rear tires off the ground with the jacks because of a concern about loss of braking ability. If Newmar says so, I would really appreciate someone telling me where to find that instruction. Absent any such instruction from Newmar, I don't see any problem with lifting the braked rear axle off the ground. ...

We don't have our Newmar yet, but my Winnebago DP with the same jack system does specifically warn against lifting one or more rear tires off the ground while using the jacks because of braking reasons. It's stated that the rear axle provides all of the braking and all four tires on the rear axle must always be in contact with the ground. The instructions further state that it is permissible to raise both front wheels off the ground. Again this is for the Winnebago product that I have five years experience with.
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Old 10-31-2014, 08:39 AM   #36
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The HWH warning requiring wheel chocks and jack stands are the standard safety warnings issued with all hydraulic lifting devices, including those used in repair shops. They should be used when working under the vehicle or changing tires.
On my 2008 DS I could lift the rear tires off the ground and it was used for changing tires (with wheel blocks and jack stand).
HWH does not require you to block the wheels for normal leveling operation and in automatic mode the system will extend one or more jacks to full travel if the level sensor calls for it, whether it lifts the tire off the ground or not. With straight acting jacks it is not a problem, the coach will not move even if the rear tires are off the ground. The interlock with the parking brake is there to assure that some system failure or accidental pressing a button while the coach is in motion will not extend the levelers. HWH builds jacks which fold up when retracted (not used by Newmar). With that system the coach can come off the levelers if the wheels with the parking brake are off the ground.

The system as designed by is intended by HWH and, I am sure, by all coach manufacturers to both level and stabilize the coach automatically.

The problem with FW and other long flush mounted slides is that the flexing of the coach while standing on a compound slope or after leveling will sometimes distort the sidewall opening to the degree that it will cause binding (when the slides are in) or overlap of the trim and opening (when the slides are retracted). I seen that happening occasionally on a non FWS 2008 Dutch Star and on a non FWS 2011 Mountain Aire. The long term fix for this occasional problem would be for Newmar to increase the stiffness of the coach or increase the margins ( the gap between the slide's trim and the opening) which would not be attractive. Most designs are results of multiple considerations, and increasing the stiffness may have some detrimental effect.

The Newmar tech's instruction for extending the slides before leveling works well at Camp Newmar's fairly level sites and in the repair buildings. Unfortunately many times you have no choice and have to park on sites with slopes requiring a wheel or axel off the ground to be level. The slope, due to gravity, can cause the slide controller to stop, falsely thinking that the slide reached the limit, or cause the slide to move forward or rearward in the opening. That is why the Owners Manual states to level first.

For coaches with long or FW slides, the best approach is to be aware of the potential of the slide binding and regardless whether you level before and after, manually or automatically, check the opening before you extend and before finish fully retracting the slide.
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Old 10-31-2014, 02:17 PM   #37
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Very well said Andy it explains things a lot simpler than reading things off PFD's.
Thanks for your help between these two threads its been busy.
The other thread.
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Old 11-05-2014, 11:33 AM   #38
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Newmar Instructions at Factory on Slide Out and In

We were at the Newmar factory 2nd week in August for some minor work. The first thing the Service Tech did is inform us when coach would be picked up and delivered each day. The 2nd thing he did was inform us on when to put slides in and when to bring slides out. We have a DS 4038 - 4 Wall Slide unit. This is what he told us:

Park
Deploy slides
Air down
Level, jacks down

When leaving:

Air up
Jacks up
Slides in
Drive off

Air up before lifting jack keeps the coach from coming down hard on the stops. Very similar but slightly different from OC Bill post.

Oh well, wife witnessed conversation along with some other customers. So that is what I am going to do.
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Old 11-05-2014, 08:21 PM   #39
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Thanks for the Info Cajun Traveler. It is nice to hear that the factory is still on the same procedure. I called them about a week ago and spoke to some tech who told me jacks down first. I personally think he was not onboard with the updated procedure for full wall slide.
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Old 11-08-2014, 07:06 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajun Traveler View Post
We were at the Newmar factory 2nd week in August for some minor work. The first thing the Service Tech did is inform us when coach would be picked up and delivered each day. The 2nd thing he did was inform us on when to put slides in and when to bring slides out. We have a DS 4038 - 4 Wall Slide unit. This is what he told us:

Park
Deploy slides
Air down
Level, jacks down

When leaving:

Air up
Jacks up
Slides in
Drive off

Air up before lifting jack keeps the coach from coming down hard on the stops. Very similar but slightly different from OC Bill post.

Oh well, wife witnessed conversation along with some other customers. So that is what I am going to do.

I really am confused now!

I thought that Newmar's new procedure of deploying slides before leveling was to be used on a coach with a FWS and that a unit without the FWS was to level first then deploy slides? I'm not questioning the fact that you were instructed by Newmar's techs Cajun Traveler, sounds like you are following instructions, but it appears that even within the technical staff at Newmar there is some confusion?

I've been following several threads pertaining to this issue for the past year and the issue over how to operate the FWS was factored into my decision to purchase a quad slide floor plan (as well as several other factors).

A lot of the information posted over the past year is contradictory, does anyone have anything directly from Newmar, in writing, that they can share? I'm reading here that "this method of deployment of slides has not changed unless you have a full wall slide."

Please, let me know if I'm interpreting this incorrectly, just want to follow the correct procedure when I take delivery of my new coach! Thanks.
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Old 11-08-2014, 07:35 AM   #41
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Thank's for the post Swag, only the FWS AS MENTIONED, other coach's as they have always been jacks down slides out.
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Old 11-08-2014, 08:14 AM   #42
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Thanks 007 ... but I'm still concerned.

Cajun Traveler was recently at the factory and was advised of the new procedure to put slides out first and then level. However, he doesn't own a coach with a FWS, his 4038 is a quad slide unit.

Then Mr JP claims that he called the factory a week ago and a Newmar technician instructed him that the procedure is jacks down to level and then deploy slides, clearly contradicting what other Newmar techs are instructing owners in regards to the new FWS procedure.

From everything I have been reading, the new procedure is to inspect the gap around the FWS on the outside of the coach prior to deploying, if the gap is OK then deploy the slide and then level the coach. I've also read that this new procedure pertains to the FWS only and that units without a FWS will use the old procedure of leveling then deploying slides.

If this is the case, why are the Newmar techs telling owners to use the new procedure for coaches without a FWS? I'm not being critical of anyone who is posted, seems that instruction coming from Newmar and the dealerships is all over the map.
Surely Newmar has a new written procedure for an issue as important as this one? Thanks in advance for posting if anyone can put it out here for us.
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