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Old 06-16-2019, 07:54 PM   #1
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Lack of central control system? / Order time?

Looking at 2020 Entegra Aspire and the 2020 Newmar Ventana to replace my current coach.

First question, does the lack of any Firefly or Spyder central control system in the Ventana and Dutch Star make you worry about resell/trade-in value in the future? It seems that those two models are the only new diesel pushers without such a system. Last year at the Pomona show, Pat Carroll of Entegra said that they felt they "HAD" to add the VegaTouch to all their models, or they would begin losing sales. What do you guys think? My local dealer is pushing me to go for the Aspire to future proof my coach. I really like the Newmar line to try something different than my current Allegro Bus.

Second question, does anyone know what the delivery time would be for a Newmar coach ordered in the next week or two?

Thanks,
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Old 06-16-2019, 09:26 PM   #2
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Hi - It's obvious that your salesman doesn't get out much. Lots of diesel pushers do not have a Spyder type system unless he has some price point in mind. Just bought my second Dutch Star and it held its value better than our previous Allegro Bus. Also didn't have the issues I did with Spyder.

Hint : mark up from dealer cost to MSRP is higher on the Entegra so guess why he is guiding you in that direction. Entegra is a good coach but don't look to the sale person to be working in your interest. Neither the Aspire nor the Ventana is going to be the same as your Bus. If that's what you want then look at Dutch Star and Anthem.


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Old 06-17-2019, 05:15 PM   #3
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Hi Ricci!

He meant that among what I call the big/main 3, (Newmar, Tiffin, and Entegra) that all their diesel pushers now include a spyder or firefly type system, except the VT and DS. I am aware that Entegra has a much larger discounts. A fully loaded 2020 Ventana 4369 is about $293K, the 2020 Aspire 44F is about $319K, and the 2020 Dutch Star 4369 about $353K. His point was that for $34K less, the Aspire had the VegaTouch and only gives up the MoreFloor and Comfort drive compared to the DS4369. His advice was that he thought the Aspire might be an easier sell in the future. Just something to think about along with the longer warranty.

After talking more to Tom Lindstrom, I am really leaning towards the DS4369 as I have admired it for quite a while. The 2020 Anthem with the Valid air and EZ Steer, is above my current comfort level. I can always add the HWH Active Air to the DS later if I miss it too much.

Just curious, did your Allegro Bus have the spyder system and what kind of problems did you have and do you miss it? At this point, another Tiffin is not in my future, but I am curious. I do love the small touch screens they have by the bed!

Thanks
Tad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post
Hi - It's obvious that your salesman doesn't get out much. Lots of diesel pushers do not have a Spyder type system unless he has some price point in mind. Just bought my second Dutch Star and it held its value better than our previous Allegro Bus. Also didn't have the issues I did with Spyder.

Hint : mark up from dealer cost to MSRP is higher on the Entegra so guess why he is guiding you in that direction. Entegra is a good coach but don't look to the sale person to be working in your interest. Neither the Aspire nor the Ventana is going to be the same as your Bus. If that's what you want then look at Dutch Star and Anthem.


Tom
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:59 PM   #4
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OK...I'll bite. What is "Snyder?" "Firefly?" Never heard of either one. Are they something like Silverleaf?

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Old 06-17-2019, 06:53 PM   #5
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Spyder Controls and Firefly Integrations both supply central control systems for RVs like the Silverleaf system. Tiffin uses the Spyder system and Entegra uses the Firefly VegaTouch system. They both seem to be a little more powerful and modern to me. But then, I have never really used or even looked at the Silverleaf system on the Mountain Aire and up. Both have apps that you can use.
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Old 06-17-2019, 07:01 PM   #6
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JMHO: This is coming from a retired auto mechanic who had to deal with a LOT of issues with control systems, including some that saw the cars involved scrapped way before their time .
How livable is the coach if the control system goes down ?
How long is the warranty on the system ?
If it goes dead and can't be repaired , how much is the coach worth ?

There is a lot to be said for the KISS method of engineering .
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Old 06-17-2019, 08:08 PM   #7
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Hi Tad - I had trouble with all sorts of things on our 2016 Bus (40AP), including the Spyder with panels that shorted out. They may have improved them now but then they were very adverse to static electricity. In the winter time it was easy to have enough static charge on your body to blow out a panel. Also there was no "fail safe" back up. If the system went down it was down. Entegra is smart enough to have major systems that are on their system on a backup. You can still bypass so slides work, heat etc.


Take a closer look at the chassis, engine, axles and wheels, cabinetry materials and furniture quality on the various models you are looking at, they are not equals. Good coaches but not equals. Depends on how you plan to use it.


I don't miss the Spyder system and if I were to go buy a used coach I'd look for simplicity of systems rather than the latest gadget. Tiffin has been shooting themselves in the foot regarding long term owners lately, Newmar is a well known quantity. Someone just posted about an owner of a Newmar 5th wheel in for service at Nappanee, they go back a few years.



Whatever get what meets your needs and makes you happy.



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Old 06-17-2019, 08:29 PM   #8
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As someone with a smart home, and I mean real smart (no TVs, lights, etc. if my home automation goes out), the tech guy in me wishes that my Ventana had a control system. My brother in law gets notifications from his coach proxy (third party add on to spyder system), and I have buttons/switches.

That said, there is part of me that likes the simplicity and reliability of a non integrated system.

I'm very torn. The one thing that I doubt will be an issue is resale value. Someone that researches and decides they want a Newmar due to quality/insulation/etc. isn't going to walk away from a coach because it doesn't have a spyder/firefly system, conversely, nobody is going to jump to a branch they don't otherwise want because it has one.

For me, of all the things I looked at, and all the reasons I would eventually move to a higher line coach, a firefly/spyder type control system is about tenth on the list (or lower).
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Old 06-17-2019, 11:02 PM   #9
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Thanks guys! There is no way that I would go back to a Tiffin at this point. I really was hoping that Newmar would bring out a central control system for the DS, but I agree that even without it, it seems to be the best choice at my price point.

The Entegra does offer a lot of bang for the buck and has many nice features. I was really thinking that I would go with the Aspire. But then I found out you can't even change the exterior paint colors. The color choices are all WAY too dark for me. The gray wood we liked only has one choice of interior colors. And I never could get my head around the front and back transformer look. I know it is a great coach but its not for me right now. So, we changed our mind.

Plus, I had to admit to myself, that for the last several years, I had already made up my mind that I really wanted to try a Newmar. So now I am in the process of putting together an order for a 2020 DS4369.
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Old 06-18-2019, 09:10 AM   #10
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This isn't a slight in anyway against those that like the command center approach.

I am SO happy my Ventana does NOT come with that stuff. I get so much more system control having an ME-ARC talking to my Inverter than the basic commands that come with the touch screen programmed systems.

That's just me...
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Old 06-18-2019, 12:03 PM   #11
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Tqqest - We also went to the Pomona show and looked at the Entegra and Newmar Dutch Star. The quality of the Entegra is comparable to the Dutch Star but Entegra will not customize your coach like Newmar will. You can change almost anything (for a fee )but it can be done. Entegra was not interested in customizing their coaches.
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Old 06-18-2019, 01:17 PM   #12
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I chose a DSDP on purpose to AVOID those panels as much as possible. IMHO, the panel makes the systems less user serviceable, and this factor is very important to me.
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Old 06-18-2019, 11:40 PM   #13
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I think all three brands, Tiffin, Newmar and Entegra make a good coach, but there was always something about the front and rear caps of the Entegra I never liked. I couldn't put my finger on it until now. They look like "Transformers" figures! Thanks!
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Old 06-19-2019, 12:17 AM   #14
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Future proof technology? What a laugh. The main parts of a DP will be operable long after the current flavors of central control are long obsolete. Do some research and you'll find reports of older pushers having to replace entire central control networks because of no parts availability.
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