Li-Ion Coach Batteries

[BillSkeen]

Yep, I finally found the LFE packs on Elite.


Thanks for the link on Wheeling It. Lots of good info there.

[Rd1]

Originally Posted by dereed999

So, yeah, it's not cheap. But the economics really aren't that bad - .

To add to your helpful comment, I understand any solar system will qualify for a 30% write off. The Li batteries by themselves do not qualify. However, if you are buying a complete package of solar system including the Li batteries, then the entire expense, wiring, labor, the batteries, etc are covered for the 30% deduction. fyi.

[99phantoms]

Does that federal solar tax credit expire at the end of this year?

[Rd1]

I think it is good thru 2019 then drops to 26% and continues to drop to 10%(?) and end in 2023??

Solar Investment Tax Credit (ITC) | SEIA

[slabman]

Just to clarify, I just installed 8 Lifelines with 1200 A-H capacity for a total of $3025. Or...to stay with the standard 880 capacity of those crummy Discovers, Lifelines come in at about $2425. Why would I pay $290-300 each for more Discover batteries when the oem ones failed in less than 2 years?

[cruizerEd]

The LiFePO4 that you put in a coach are not fire hazards. That is a different Lithium Ion technology.

Originally Posted by mel s

CUME91
So far I have been satisfied with the performance of flooded lead acid batteries in the RVs I've owned.

I may be paranoid.... but the possibility of a Li-ion, (lithium-ion), battery fire scares the bejesus out of me.



Mel
'96 Safari

[cruizerEd]

First off LiFePO4 are stable and not subject to runaway states that cause fires. The cells I have looked at are destructively tested to make sure that penetration, shorting, over charge, over voltage, and other catastrophic events do not cause fires.

A LiFePO4 might last long enough to provide a payback compared to Lead Acid (including AGM) but there are other advantages. I personally feel it is more of a lifestyle decision verse economics. I don't drive a luxurious class A diesel pusher because it has economical advantages over a van and a small trailer, so the systems I put in it are judges by a mix of my budget, my lifestyle choices, and practicalities including engineering and economics.

LifePO4 can be discharged to 80% of capacity versus 50% of Lead Acid. 1200 AH LiFePO4 system is smaller and lighter than and 1200 AH Lead Acid and has 1000AH of usable power versus 600 for the Lead acid. So I can pack a lot more power into the same space and less weight. The space is a big deal to me, the weight not so much as long as it is less, how much less doesn't matter.

The LiFEPO4 can be safely partially charged and discharged without affecting it's life and in fact you can extend the life of an LiFEPO4 by discharging to 20% and only charging to 90%. Lead acids don't like this. This is huge for solar, stop charging when the sun goes in/down or run the generator just long enough to get to the next sunny day.

LiFePO4 do not have an absorption phase during charging, you dump as much current as you probably have until you reach your desired State of Charge (SOC). Also good for solar and cuts down on generator run times.

The LiFEPO4 can charge at much higher rates than Lead acid and absorb it more efficiently which is important for solar systems. You can use all of the power the panels produce get more SOC from what you produce than Lead Acid.

LIFePO4 do not lose capacity at high currents, they maintain virtually the same capacity at high current loads as they have at low current loads. Lead Acids lose significant capacity at high currents ( Peukert Effect). Run your microwave or a hot plate for long on an AGM and you'll loose a lot more SOC from the AGM than you will for a LiFePO4.

LIFePO4 have very low self discharge, the energy you put in stays in. Important for solar charging where energy is scarce and efficiency is rewarded. Lead Acids have a higher self discharge rate.

LIFePO4 can actually be discharged at high temperatures than Lead acid but can not be charged below 32F, where as Lead Acids can be charged (although at only low currents) at -4F. I have a recollection that LIFePO4 are more efficient discharging than Lead acid at cold temperatures but I can not find that information at this time.

LIFePO4 can be installed inside the coach because they do not produce dangerous gases.

For this reason I am hands down going with LiFePO4 batteries as soon as I can settle on a design and an installer.

Originally Posted by slabman

Just to clarify, I just installed 8 Lifelines with 1200 A-H capacity for a total of $3025. Or...to stay with the standard 880 capacity of those crummy Discovers, Lifelines come in at about $2425. Why would I pay $290-300 each for more Discover batteries when the oem ones failed in less than 2 years?

[cruizerEd]

Balqon seems to have stop supporting this line of business. I have heard this from several installers and they have not responded to my inquiries. I am taking them off my list of suppliers for now.

Originally Posted by Timon

It's been fairly well covered but I totally agree you NEVER want to run Li-Ion batteries in any place where living things reside. They are just way to easy to be damage and thus cause a fire.

Stick with Lithium Iron Phosphate ( aka, LiFePO4 or LFE) batteries for any mobile application. Just remember they don't like to be charged when the temperature is below 32 degrees although you can discharge them at low temperature. In addition the more they are run at higher temperatures, over 90 degrees or so, the life span will be shortened a bit.

LFEs have come down a lot in the last few years.

You can get complete packs from Balqon that includes the battery management which protects the batteries from uneven charging plus over charging or over discharging.

• 5KwHR 400AH, 155 pound pack (13.50 W x18.75 L x 13.75 H inches) for $2,950 MSRP.
• 9KwHR 700AH, 233 pound pack (13.50 W x25.25 L x 14.50 H inches) for $4,480 MSRP.
• 18KwHR 1,400AH, 455 pound pack (24.0 W x25.25 L x 14.50 H inches) for $8150 MSRP.

These newer pack make charging much simpler. You'll be hard to find newer charger that won't handle these. Newer Magnums can be set to charge correctly. Even with these features you need to know what you're doing, or know someone that does, before you install them.

If you're upgrading or remodeling a coach unlike most batteries used in an RVs you can have these mounted inside the coach without worrying about safety. This has the advantage that the temperature of the coach is in the range that the LFE batteries like to be in. As safe as they are I might still place them inside a lite weight metal enclosure, think bread box, just for a little extra measure of safety.

[cruizerEd]

I missed that it was extended in 2015, but as always check with a qualified accountant before committing to anything where the tax credit is a consideration.

[Timon]

Originally Posted by cruizerEd

Balqon seems to have stop supporting this line of business. I have heard this from several installers and they have not responded to my inquiries. I am taking them off my list of suppliers for now.

Let me pull the information together for the battries that Balqon uses which will include the US distributors. I also have information on the battery charge controller that looks good plus has a Bluetooth interface.

Most of my data is saved in the cloud so hopefully I can access it from where I'm at. If some is not in my cloud account it will have to wait till I get home.

[marcham]

Originally Posted by cruizerEd

First off LiFePO4 are stable and not subject to runaway states that cause fires. The cells I have looked at are destructively tested to make sure that penetration, shorting, over charge, over voltage, and other catastrophic events do not cause fires.

A LiFePO4 might last long enough to provide a payback compared to Lead Acid (including AGM) but there are other advantages. I personally feel it is more of a lifestyle decision verse economics. I don't drive a luxurious class A diesel pusher because it has economical advantages over a van and a small trailer, so the systems I put in it are judges by a mix of my budget, my lifestyle choices, and practicalities including engineering and economics.

LifePO4 can be discharged to 80% of capacity versus 50% of Lead Acid. 1200 AH LiFePO4 system is smaller and lighter than and 1200 AH Lead Acid and has 1000AH of usable power versus 600 for the Lead acid. So I can pack a lot more power into the same space and less weight. The space is a big deal to me, the weight not so much as long as it is less, how much less doesn't matter.

The LiFEPO4 can be safely partially charged and discharged without affecting it's life and in fact you can extend the life of an LiFEPO4 by discharging to 20% and only charging to 90%. Lead acids don't like this. This is huge for solar, stop charging when the sun goes in/down or run the generator just long enough to get to the next sunny day.

.

The only major disadvantage of lifepo4 packs which none of the rv vendors mention is that the chemistry is inherently unstable when fully charged and will cause a gradual degradation of capacity. Storage voltage at 50% depth of charge is still recommended for all lifepo4 cells that I've looked into.

If I was in a situation where I cycle my batteries deeply everyday and have a need for high current applications (say an air conditioner) then there's no better alternative. But if I only camp 30 days a year or I'm plugged in most nights then the cells will degrade before I wear them out by cycling and I'll never get the payoff.

For a towed trailer, further complicating the installation is the incompatible charge voltages applied by the vehicles alternator, which would require the use of a dc-dc converter/ lipo4 charger. At a recommended 3.6v / cell x 4 = 14.4v, the pack may get overcharged as many engine alternators may put out up to 14.8V (or higher in the winter). A lifepo4 stored fully charged will have a lifespan of about 3-5 years unless frequently cycled.

If over charged or over discharged even a single time due to misconfiguration of the battery monitor , the lifepo4 bank will be permanently damaged , whereas flooded batteries can take a lot of abuse as long as they don't sit discharged for too long.

Next on the list is they can't be charged when frozen, thus requiring that they be moved to a heated compartment... Not a problem in Arizona but it is when late season hunting in the North.

Lead acid can be discharged to 80% every now and then and it won't affect cycle life as long as it's not too frequent. Theoretically, you'd replace 1200Ah of lead acid with 750Ah of lithium. 1320Ah of Trojan gc2 costs $1800 (50% = 660Ah). 800 ah of lifepo4 (80% = 640Ah) costs about $5000, plus a new charger, plus a battery monitor, plus cell balancer, plus wiring, plus fuses, plus installation, etc... It's expensive to be on the bleeding edge!

Lead acid = $2.72 /Ah
Lifepo4 = $7.89 / Ah (plus other components)

There's no doubt some will benefit , but for 99.9% of the rv industry , it's a luxury.

[ghaynes754]

Here's the 3 Balqon RV units. Balqon Electric Vehicle Manufacturer

I started an online order for the middle size and it seems to take the order. Shipping into CO quoted at $273 which with the Alternator, Over Charge, Discharge Controllers takes the price to $5146. The 9kwh is 750ah. Not a bad price for that size of setup.

But I also see that their last quarterly report was in Nov 2014.

[Timon]

Here is a BMS that I like. Haven't used it but on paper and from my research it looks good. Their design does not use shunts, measures input and output currents independtly, controls charge and discharge relays independtly and has a Bluetooth interface.

123smartbms programmable BMS chargers

[99phantoms]

Looks expensive... how much is it?