Newbie Question

[txwino]

Hello all. I've been lurking here for a few weeks after being introduced to this great website by Jetsmania (Thanks Paul). I've got a 2006 EXDP 4502 and have had numerous problems with the cooling system and am scheduled to get the 'Spartan Update' in the next week or so (I already have had the entire cooling system replaced once). I won't go into all those problems here (numerous) as they have been well discussed previously on this site.
I do however have another problem that I would appreciate feedback from. I looked through the site history and did not see any reference to problems with exhaust soot buildup on the mud flap. My coach has a particular problem with that and I have noticed more than a few other EXDP's with similar problems - to various degrees. I had it analyzed at Cabin Diesel Services, in Big Cabin, OK. (An excellent diesel mechanic shop) Got the ECM updated with the latest software, then had the Turbocompressor replaced - neither of those helped at all. I have an appointment at the Spartan Factory in April and Ed Dobbs has offered to have his Cummins rep look at it while I am there. Anyone else familiar with or have similar problems. Thanks for your feedback and for this great website.

King Graham
2006 EXDP 4502

[txwino]

Hello all. I've been lurking here for a few weeks after being introduced to this great website by Jetsmania (Thanks Paul). I've got a 2006 EXDP 4502 and have had numerous problems with the cooling system and am scheduled to get the 'Spartan Update' in the next week or so (I already have had the entire cooling system replaced once). I won't go into all those problems here (numerous) as they have been well discussed previously on this site.
I do however have another problem that I would appreciate feedback from. I looked through the site history and did not see any reference to problems with exhaust soot buildup on the mud flap. My coach has a particular problem with that and I have noticed more than a few other EXDP's with similar problems - to various degrees. I had it analyzed at Cabin Diesel Services, in Big Cabin, OK. (An excellent diesel mechanic shop) Got the ECM updated with the latest software, then had the Turbocompressor replaced - neither of those helped at all. I have an appointment at the Spartan Factory in April and Ed Dobbs has offered to have his Cummins rep look at it while I am there. Anyone else familiar with or have similar problems. Thanks for your feedback and for this great website.

King Graham
2006 EXDP 4502

["007"]

Welcome txwino to irv2 and the Newmar forum.
Can't help with your problems but have some good people that may help you and I'm sure Spartan will when you see them.
I can give you some KARMA and invite you to enjoy all the forums on irv2 and do post often.

[RV Wizard]

txwino, welcome to iRV2.com. We are glad you have joined us here and look forward to reading of your adventures and experieinces. Please do keep us updated on the Spartan issues. Good luck and take care.

[txwino]

Thanks "007" and RV Wizard for the kind welcome remarks. I'll try to post when I feel I can contribute. I thoroughly enjoy the website.

I guess that nobody shares the same exhaust soot buildup problem I have spoken of here so I'll see if I can find some help elsewhere. Perhaps if I included a picture it would help? (If I could figure out how to do that with my limited computer skills)

FYI, am scheduled to have the "Spartan Update" to my cooling system (entire system changed for the second time + 4th fan belt change) on 2/27 here in the Fort Worth area. Hopefully it will work this time - I have had it with all the cooling system problems I've experienced - so far over 30 days downtime awaiting 'fixes'. Very inconvenient, especially for fulltimers like us.

Thanks again for the welcome.

King Graham
2006 EXDP 4502

["007"]

King you have to signin to Photo's than upload pic to Photo, than it will be approved, than you can add to post.
Come down to Newmar forum and post there some owners maybe able to help you.

[phototex]

King,
When my DSDP arrived at the dealer in early Jan., I noticed that the mud flap had lots of exhaust soot on it - the shiny stainless steel part - right where the tail pipe sticks out. The technician that was doing the dealer pre-delivery inspection told me to get an extension on the exhaust pipe - longer, pointed down and to the side more - to keep the soot off my mud flap and my TOAD. I didn't put it at the top of my list, but I am very interested on what you find out. I don't like the idea of my white Jeep getting coated with diesel soot.

[GaryKD]

At the risk of over stepping my knowledge on this subject. I'll post a straw man. Those with more knowledge, please feel free to provide additional information.

Also known as diesel fumes, diesel exhaust is a complex mixture of gases and diesel particulate matter (DPM). Components include:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>carbon monoxide
<LI>carbon dioxide
<LI>sulphur dioxide
<LI>nitrogen oxides
<LI>aldehydes including benzene and formaldehyde
<LI>hydrocarbons
<LI>polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs)
<LI>soot (carbon)[/list]The major component of diesel exhaust is soot (60%-80%). This is what you see coming out of the exhaust pipe.

Most of the DPM, also known as fine particulate matter, consists of particles so tiny they are easily inhaled and deposited in the lower lungs where they cause various health effects.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>blue smoke (mainly oil and unburnt fuel) which indicates a poorly serviced and/or tuned engine
<LI>black smoke (soot, oil and unburnt fuel) which indicates a mechanical fault with the engine
<LI>white smoke (water droplets and unburnt fuel) which is produced when the engine is started from cold and disappears when the engine warms up[/list]
The mechanical fault mentioned above should be taken as the exhaust is producing excessive soot. The mechanical fault could be any number of items with regard to the engine itself, turbo charger, air intake or exhaust system problems/adjustments. Only a qualified shop can tell you if the soot is excessive and if so, what the problem is. This would be after running tests with their diagnostic equipment.

If you wnat to read up on this subject, the above mentioned information was found at a variety of sites after I Google searched "diesel black exhaust soot". If you do the reading, make sure you have a drink with a lot of caffeine. The documents are kind of dry reading. I've condensed a lot of the technical jargon into an overview that might be usefull. The bottom line is get the coach to a qualified shop.

On edit, I see the OP will be taking the coach to Spartan. Consider asking Ed Dobbs, in advance, if he has all the right equipment to make an analysis and problem determination. If not, a Cummins authorized facility may be your best bet.

[cwg]

Thanks for the information, Gary. It is good stuff and condensed which I like. My question after reading of the different colors of exhausted diesel is what is the color of normal exhaust which comes from a tuned up engine?

[GaryKD]

cwg,
The exhaust should be clear, one should see nothing. This is once the engine is at operating tempeture and at idle to crusing load. All bets are off under full load. The black soot is not seen as it comes out the exhaust. What is seen is the build up of the exhaust soot, on anything in its path.

[Jetsmania]

Hi King! Glad to hear you will get, finally, the final update (hopefully). Let us know if you have a problem that is deeper then just making sure the mud flap is tucked under the coach when you first start it. Mine develops some soot, but did not burn up like yours. Paul

[txwino]

Thanks Gary for the extremely informative analysis and for your efforts in researching the problem. I will peruse the Google items in the morning with a strong cup of coffee.

Given the blackness of the soot deposit, I would imagine that the problem stems from black smoke. When I had it analyzed at Cabin Diesel, in Big Cabin, OK, (highly recommended again) in September, they spent most of a day and a half trying to isolate the problem while I was waiting for cooling system parts from Spartan that were promised overnight but took three days to all get there. Numerous telephone conversations with Cummins produced quite a few "try this's", and "try that's". After they ruled out quite a few potential problem areas they decided to remove the ECM and take it to Tulsa for updating to the latest software (would have been nice if they had remembered to activate the speedometer again after the update!). After that didn't work, on my next visit there in October, they tested the Turbo Compressor and it failed their test criteria. They changed the Turbo Compressor but that has not helped either, if anything it is worse. I have seen quite a few mud flaps with the same buildup, but none as bad as mine - perhaps I should wash it more often!

I have spoken with Ed Dobbs regarding the problem, and he said they have a good Cummins Rep in Charlotte, where I have an appointment on April 5-6 (after my April 2-4 appointment in Napannee). Ed said if his Cummins guy can't figure it out, he will advise a further course of acton.

So far, Ed has been very cooperative and helpful. In fact, so has Carl at Newmar, as I believe I have had more than the average number of problems with this coach. I expect that cooperation will continue, mindful of the fact that these have become very complicated and sophisticated machines.

Thanks Bill for your suggestion regarding the tailpipe extension. Perhaps I will end up there but I would first like to attempt to solve the problem.

Hi Paul - I'll be sure to keep the board advised of any more unusual situations.

Thanks again Gary for your efforts and advice.

King Graham
2006 EXDP 4502

[Ed-Deb]

I believe the definitions of white and black smoke are slightly off. (From my experience and research...which does not neccessarily mean that I am correct).

Black smoke from diesel exhaust is indicative of excessive unburnt fuel. This is common when an engine is under heavy load at low RPMs and the fuel injected exceeds useage and / or the turbo has not spooled up. This can also be caused by improper injection timing and is more apparent in a "chipped" engine.

I can make my 99 Dodge emit a puff of black smoke if I accellerate heavily or really lug the engine at wide open throttle. I have not seen this with the MH as the Allison trans doesn't let the engine lug excessively.

White smoke is common on initial start up in some engines and can be indicitive of moisutre in the exhaust. However, it more commonly indicates fuel starvation.

A diesel engine does emit soot particulate which the new 07 engines are supposedly addressing with soot traps, catalytic converters / burners, and ultra low sulfer diesel fuel.

The old two strokes (i.e. Detroit Diesels) would belch clouds of black smoke. This was "normal" exhaust which unfortunately gave diesels a bad image in America.

Some soot particulate build up on objects near the exhaust is common. However large deposits may be a symptom of an engine or fuel injection problem.

A Cummins technician should be able to help you resolve the issue.

Not trying to argue, just posting what I have read and experienced.

Ed

[txwino]

Thanks Ed. I truly appreciate your input and the input from all others. I will keep the forum advised of any findings.

King Graham
2006 EXDP 4502
2004 Honda Pilot Toad
NKK 17500L