Right to Repair Movement

[Stuart W]

Originally Posted by turbopilot

Free wiring is a new term to me in manufacturing. If they want to do it that way the solution is simple. Document the change when the work is done and include it with the coach documentation along with the standard diagrams (wiring not "free")

Yes it was new to me also. Basically the odds of having two identical motorhomes is slim. In my opinion, after working in the automotive industry for most of my life, this is reckless and can lead to safety issues that are hard to trace and recall, as the manufacturer can not identify the units that have been “free Wired”in an unsafe manner. Turbo you know and have documented firsthand how the wiring just goes where ever the installer felt like at the time. In some cases without the consideration for movement and vibration that could lead to premature failure, fire or worse.

[garbonz]

One thing I can say about Winnebago is that they produce accurate documentation of all their systems and put it online, even doing part year updates when they change something.

[Stuart W]

Originally Posted by garbonz

One thing I can say about Winnebago is that they produce accurate documentation of all their systems and put it online, even doing part year updates when they change something.

The also use wire harness layout board jigs and seam to make an effort at using actual wire harness.

[Dav L]

"Free wiring"...one of the downsides of having a sales / manufacturing process where the client can customize the product. The heavy truck industry has same problem. Each VIN is essentially a custom made product built on a flexible manufacturing line.

[Stuart W]

Originally Posted by Dav L

"Free wiring"...one of the downsides of having a sales / manufacturing process where the client can customize the product. The heavy truck industry has same problem. Each VIN is essentially a custom made product built on a flexible manufacturing line.

The automotive industry got smart, and prewired for accessories so wiring harnesses could remain intact. By the way, while working on your Newmar, you will come across quite a few extra wires, in the walls, behind the dash, and in the cabinet above the driver.

[turbopilot]

Originally Posted by Dav L

"Free wiring"...one of the downsides of having a sales / manufacturing process where the client can customize the product. The heavy truck industry has same problem. Each VIN is essentially a custom made product built on a flexible manufacturing line.

"Free wiring" is simply a rationalization for not taking the time to document individual coach modifications as they move down the line. Simply put Newmar is trading cost efficiency during manufacturing for ultimate owner ease and cost of service. Don't wish to turn this into an excess rant but it is clear some owners do not have a clue about why it is so hard and expensive to repair their coach when it breaks.

Connect the dots folks.

[nothermark]

Originally Posted by turbopilot

"Free wiring" is simply a rationalization for not taking the time to document individual coach modifications as they move down the line. Simply put Newmar is trading cost efficiency during manufacturing for ultimate owner ease and cost of service. Don't wish to turn this into an excess rant but it is clear some owners do not have a clue about why it is so hard and expensive to repair their coach when it breaks.

Connect the dots folks.

Add to that the idea that part of the cost of offering many options is the lack of documentation. It's easy to document 100 identical pieces. Not so easy to document 100 similar pieces.

Yes, they could give every builder a laptop with a CAD program loaded with the basic drawings then let them change as required. That is if you want to double their pay rate and add the cost of the computers and licenses. Probably done on an airframe but RV's don't usually have to worry about falling out of the sky.

[BFlinn181]

Originally Posted by turbopilot

Free wiring is a new term to me in manufacturing. If they want to do it that way the solution is simple. Document the change when the work is done and include it with the coach documentation along with the standard diagrams (wiring not "free")

Over 40 years ago I worked for a catering company that delivered food and drink to almost every RV and mobile home builder in Elkhart, Goshen, and surrounding towns. I got to know many of the builders of these units. Their loyalty was about as deep as their pockets. Offered $.10 more down the street, they'd jump ship in a minute. If they figured out a way to do something that required less effort on their part, they'd do it, engineering plans be damned.

From inspecting my RV and many others even fresh off the line, build quality hasn't changed much. The auto industry and many other things we use in daily life are assembled by robots and use pre-determined wiring looms. There is very little room for worker 'creativity' in assembly. RVs are not like that for much of their assembly. Making them more complex and automated still requires workers to install the systems. Yes, having access to wiring diagrams and the software programming of the modules might help a technician troubleshoot your RV's gremlins, but it won't do much to help with the staple through the wiring insulation or the poorly clamped plumbing connection.

[turbopilot]

Originally Posted by nothermark

Add to that the idea that part of the cost of offering many options is the lack of documentation. It's easy to document 100 identical pieces. Not so easy to document 100 similar pieces.

Yes, they could give every builder a laptop with a CAD program loaded with the basic drawings then let them change as required. That is if you want to double their pay rate and add the cost of the computers and licenses. Probably done on an airframe but RV's don't usually have to worry about falling out of the sky.

With respect this does not square. Here is just one page of the electrical documentation from my last RV. Every wire and wire bundle labeled. My last RV cost 1/2 of the price of my new NA. This RV did not have wings. This RV manufacturer allowed custom changes but it was not cheap as you might expect. It does not help this discussion to excuse what should be common sense. Document your product for the owner.

[Idleup]

Originally Posted by Stuart W

I went through a wiring issue, on my 4369 I had wires that were run different then two other units in dealer inventory. When I called Newmar, I was told that Newmar uses ‘free wiring’ , this means that at the discretion of the installer they are free to change locations asked on options. In my case I had two yellow 110 Wires that could be seen while laying on the sofa. As I said the other units had no wires in this location. How do you draw wire diagrams with this method?

LOL Well Heck that explains everything with the wiring!

Since these skilled wire guys have free ability to run as they like, then why not just the wires across the floor, that would bee a lot "Easier" for them rather then going under the floor and around cabinets.

I found this "Part" laying in a cabinet does anyone know where it fits?

Regards

[Stuart W]

That is a flux capacitor.......duh

[plasma800]

Originally Posted by Stuart W

That is a flux capacitor.......duh

[TJ]

After reviewing the Right to Repair link and reading the comments of previous posters, my reaction is "What's new?" We have been living in a throw-away society for, at least, the past 20 years!

Sure, I was able to go under the hood of my '55 Ford convertible (yes...I wish I still had it!) and swap out individual parts to fix issues. But, that hasn't been true since the '80s. We do not have "mechanics anymore because all "repairs" are done by replacing "modules" until the problem goes away. I'm not disparaging those woh work in auto repair; they have had to change with the times. Simply put, there are no individual parts available in most cases.

Why would anyone expect RVs to be any different? Yes, I would like to see better documentation of things like wiring diagrams, but that would come with a cost many would find unacceptable. RVers are now in the middle of the throwaway society, like it or not.

One thing that I think some people overlook is the huge increase in reliability of many of the systems we take for granted. My '55 Ford was a sweet ride, but didn't get very good fuel mileage, needed spark plugs replaced every 10K miles, etc., etc.

Now, I do agree that there's been a needless (IMHO) proliferation of technology in basic systems that I don't see providing a real benefit. With our new coach on order, I'm particularly sensitive to all the threads about problems with the Oasis system, for example. For 40+ years of RVing, my propane furnace and electric/propane water heater provided heat and hot water flawlessly. In all those years, I never had even a single issue. With Oasis, it looks like I can look forward to annual maintenance and the potential for periodic pump and/or module replacement. Sometimes, simple is better!

As for the "right to repair," it would be better labeled the "need to replace." Despite the vocal complaints, we're never going back to individual component repair ability. Ain't gonna happen...sorry!

TJ

[Mr_D]

Originally Posted by nothermark

After reading the article I don't see why you are targeting Newmar. It seems to apply to the whole industry. Few manufacturers supply drawing or specifications. So few than I wonder how many actually have them in parts of their RV's. Particularly in the towables.

As for the electronics in RV's I almost wish I was not retired. I would love to tell somebody that the MH he spent a half million on 6 years ago is now obsolete so his new tablet OS won't load the programs he needs to talk to his MH.

My CC came with a large box of manuals, included were schematics of all the electrical system including wire numbers and settings for the electronics. Wires are labeled at least at the ends, haven't needed to look in between.
Neither of my two DSDP's had any such schematics.