Community Forums

joes2901 · 02-26-2018, 08:52 PM

Newmar employees become experienced and are "artists" in assembling and connecting stuff together for our wonderful RVs. They operate like the folks in a custom car shop that you want to restore a 50 to 100 year old rusted out vehicle's hulk into like brand new condition with modern stuff working too. They figure out how to add air conditioning, a 600 HP engine and tranny and make the computer controls work together, and add power brakes, steering, windows, cruise control, etc. It looks great and it works, at least enough to get you to pay for your new pride and joy.

If parts suppliers are out of stock on something or it is different, then the RV builder Artists have to figure it out and keep the supply line moving. In the meantime, the purchasing dept continues to search for cheaper stuff to replace what the Artist's are familiar with. There is no time to stop every thing until a a nice sketch or tech document is prepared.

Anyone who has planned and performed the landscaping and interior improvements on more than one home knows that you figure out a better way to do things on the subsequent homes.

Quincy · 02-28-2018, 06:41 PM

Wow I cant wait to jump in here. Speaking about things like cars and MH's being made.. they are designed so they can be assembled as easy and cheaply as possible. Not so they can be repaired easily. Very few schematics tell you how the wire gets from A to B, just that it is the same wire at each end. House wiring is the same way.

Auto technicians now are not better trained nor do they know more than old school mechanics. They dont diagnose any more, they read a machine that tells them what is wrong and then they change the part. Many times changing a part that can be repaired because the mfg then gets to sell you a little box with several parts in it, where only one is bad, at an over inflated price. Printed circuit boards are still a mystery to all of us. If you knew how cheaply they can be made you would boil next time you shell out three hundred for one.

Modern autos are way more dependable and maintainable than ever before. You old timers out there, when was the last time your ride fell on its face when you stepped on the gas to get into traffic from a weak accelerator pump?

Talking about being able to repair or whatever the group is. You still can. Just because the mfg dosent send you written instructions where to look dosent mean you can not find your way through. They are not obligated to give you all the help they can, like sending a guy out to look over your shoulder and tell you if you are looking in the wrong corner.

Everybody wants to blame the big winners in business for them having an issue with their product. Gates did not build computers, he just offered his OS so cheaply that the computer mfg's could not do it cheaper themselves. Now he is one of the richest men in the world. By not restricting whose computer the OS can go to it is now in 90% of the pc's in the world. Apple went another way and produced a superior product with a particular strength, Graphics. Now for a particular niche, Apple is the go to guy.

If you guys with the big bucks were not wanting these high end electronic masterpieces Newmar, and others would not build them. And we would not get to own them when you trade up. Win Win.

JMHO no disrespect meant to anyone

Dav L · 02-28-2018, 10:04 PM

"Auto technicians now are not better trained nor do they know more than old school mechanics. They dont diagnose any more, they read a machine that tells them what is wrong and then they change the part. "

I disagree. Technicians in dealerships get much more training now than ever. And they do diagnose. A DTC only tells you what system is not working to spec...not the particular component that is required. Experience tells you which component has highest failure rate, that matches the symptoms (DTC being a symptom).
Parts replacers have always been around. Some of the best diagnosticians are also parts replacers...they just have the experience to know what meets the needs and shortcut much of the formal diagnosis procedure in order to make flat rate time. Every dealership has one or more excellent diagnosticians who really understand how the systems work. And they are more complicated now than ever before. They also know how the old stuff works (carburetors, ignition points, etc).

Stuart W · 03-01-2018, 07:17 AM

DavL I agree with you in part. The technicians that do get and understand training, are very well trained, and you are correct that every dealership has a few. Unfortunately my experience was that there are a lot of not so trained “technicians “ being given jobs beyond their ability these days. In my opinion/observations,Your either born a technician, and have the ability to understand the way things operate or your not, and the ones that are not are just parts changers that a lot of training just flys over their heads. Some of them unfortunately end up at RV dealerships.
The notion that today’s cars just tell the technicians to change a specific part is just that a notion.

turbopilot · 03-01-2018, 07:31 AM

Sounds like folks are missing the point. Right to repair movement is very simple. It is a call on manufacturers not to withhold the appropriate knowledge (documentation) and parts to allow a customer (or customer representative) to repair their product.

Fundamentally very simple concept and until the last decade pretty much standard of practice in the manufacturing world.

Stuart W · 03-01-2018, 07:46 AM

No I totally get the point, and feel that a manufacturer of a product that has a warranty has a obligation to insure that it is serviceable. This includes providing the necessary documentation to assist with the repairs, especially in a case like Newmar that has relatively few dealers with many of them hundreds if not thousands of miles away from its owners, where 3rd parties must be involved. As an example: my cargo lights stayed on with all doors closed, I called Newmar asking for a diagram of that circuit, the answer was they do not have one. So I spent a couple of hours mapping out the circuit and 1/2 making the repair. If I were a mobile service I would want to get paid for my 2.5 hours..out of warranty this is on all of us..........I totally get it!

turbopilot · 03-01-2018, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart W

As an example: my cargo lights stayed on with all doors closed, I called Newmar asking for a diagram of that circuit, the answer was they do not have one. So I spent a couple of hours mapping out the circuit and 1/2 making the repair. If I were a mobile service I would want to get paid for my 2.5 hours..out of warranty this is on all of us..........I totally get it!

Exactly my experience several times now. An experienced technician can reverse engineer an electrical system without schematics but it will significantly increase the cost of repair. Takes a long time to trace out wiring.

Amazing some Newmar owners are so passive about this issue. Just adds to the cost and complexity of ownership. So easy to fix. Even with "free wiring" they have the basic engineering drawings. I know since a few have slipped out. They actually do a very good job drafting the engineering drawings based on the few I have seen.

nothermark · 03-01-2018, 08:07 AM

Folks here seem to be focused on the wiring but that is just the tip of the iceberg. The newish control systems are going to be the real problem. Depending on the OS used the vendor may be legally blocked from telling you much that is assuming they want to. If it's built on either a Microsoft or BSD based OS the vendor in the middle cannot release the OS documentation if they have it. Most do not. The folks who go there tend to be the one's who do not want to tell you anyway. Ditto if all the RV manufacturer does is buy an offshore sourced box. No recourse to most foreign vendors. That is why I am happy with a simple mechanical switch I have to walk over to instead of a remotely controlled bus connected potential nightmare.

Stuart W · 03-01-2018, 08:09 AM

I questioned why they charged me close to $250 per HDMI cable that I had as specials. I was told that the cost is due to an engineer needed to draw up plans and approve the specials. When I got the motorhome and the cables were not in the places I requested, I asked the dealer to contact Newmar for the drawings, the answer was there are no drawings[emoji848]

BFlinn181 · 03-01-2018, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nothermark

Folks here seem to be focused on the wiring but that is just the tip of the iceberg. The newish control systems are going to be the real problem. Depending on the OS used the vendor may be legally blocked from telling you much that is assuming they want to. If it's built on either a Microsoft or BSD based OS the vendor in the middle cannot release the OS documentation if they have it. Most do not. The folks who go there tend to be the one's who do not want to tell you anyway. Ditto if all the RV manufacturer does is buy an offshore sourced box. No recourse to most foreign vendors. That is why I am happy with a simple mechanical switch I have to walk over to instead of a remotely controlled bus connected potential nightmare.

I agree, folks seem to be equating an RV with a car or pickup, but one big difference is Ford, VW, Toyota, etc. often build or have built components they know from the blank page to the completed vehicle. RV manufacturers, not so much. They buy components from vendors who claim their product will do the required job -- at the best price. How many different companies made the parts that make up an RV? The auto manufacturer has much more control because they buy millions of components, while an RV builder only has a few 100 units that get a component installed per year.

Stuart W · 03-01-2018, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFlinn181

I agree, folks seem to be equating an RV with a car or pickup, but one big difference is Ford, VW, Toyota, etc. often build or have built components they know from the blank page to the completed vehicle. RV manufacturers, not so much. They buy components from vendors who claim their product will do the required job -- at the best price. How many different companies made the parts that make up an RV? The auto manufacturer has much more control because they buy millions of components, while an RV builder only has a few 100 units that get a component installed per year.

Actually getting the operating manuals and diagrams for the various components never seems to be the issue, in fact when I have called the component manufacturer’s help lines they are far more knowledgeable, way more then Newmar’s customer service.

As for the automotive industry, you would be surprised at how many of the components on a car or truck are out sourced, even from one OEM to another. For example: the next time a batch of door panels are needed for a particular modal, they may come from a totally different supplier as it’s not uncommon for them to put parts out for bid even during a model year.
What we are asking for are component locations, IE the cargo bay lights relay is thrown behind the pegboard compartment, along with some basics system schematics, so that you don’t have to reinvent the wheel each time someone needs to trouble shoot an issue. Color coding of wires, did you know that on my DS many of the wires are labeled as to what component they go to? Why not include a diagram that shows the wire colors and at least point A to Point B locations. This goes the same for plumbing.
I can tell you that I’m in possession of several Newmar CAD drawings so I know they exist

KenSherwin · 03-01-2018, 08:09 PM

I'm curious about this topic. What sort of information (and to what level of detail) should I provide to you (through Newmar and FCCC, of course) on the Comfort Drive component? Thus far in this thread, it has been end users talking among yourselves. Now is your chance to have somebody closer to the other side of the fence listen to you. Keep in mind that any information handed to you will end up in our competitors hands later that same morning and I definitely don't want to help them.

Stuart W · 03-01-2018, 08:13 PM

I would be interested to see a wiring diagram that lists components, I appreciate the inner workings should remain proprietary.

KenSherwin · 03-01-2018, 08:25 PM

The entire Comfort Drive system is contained in one component. The wiring diagram for it was made public in the IRV2 files area, near the back of the document:

http://www.irv2.com/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=150.

The turn signal switch wiring is documented by the chassis builder as we have no control over which switch contact they use for what function.

What else?