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Old 11-05-2007, 07:11 PM   #1
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I'd like to install a switch with LED for the water pump, in my utility/service bay. I just installed a Shurflo 5.7 VSD pump and a silencing kit (great pressure!) and noticed that the ground side had two splices leaving. I assume these are for the two switches installed by WRV (one in water closet, one at control panel).

Questions:

1. Does that mean I just need to install yet another splice heading to the utility bay?

2. I believe the switches are short to ground. Should the switch be a momentary short to ground?

3. How will that illuminate an LED?

4. Camping World had two switches in stock. One a double pole with no LED, the other a triple pole with LED. Do I need a different type of switch? (A momentary, short to ground, LED switch?)

Regular 120 volt three-way switches are hard enough to follow, but a four-way 12 volt switch is blowing my mind. I know Vagabond Man and several others mentioned adding switches. Can someone help me complete my line of reasoning? I've only managed to confuse myself (an increasing phenomenon).

Thanks!
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Old 11-05-2007, 07:11 PM   #2
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I'd like to install a switch with LED for the water pump, in my utility/service bay. I just installed a Shurflo 5.7 VSD pump and a silencing kit (great pressure!) and noticed that the ground side had two splices leaving. I assume these are for the two switches installed by WRV (one in water closet, one at control panel).

Questions:

1. Does that mean I just need to install yet another splice heading to the utility bay?

2. I believe the switches are short to ground. Should the switch be a momentary short to ground?

3. How will that illuminate an LED?

4. Camping World had two switches in stock. One a double pole with no LED, the other a triple pole with LED. Do I need a different type of switch? (A momentary, short to ground, LED switch?)

Regular 120 volt three-way switches are hard enough to follow, but a four-way 12 volt switch is blowing my mind. I know Vagabond Man and several others mentioned adding switches. Can someone help me complete my line of reasoning? I've only managed to confuse myself (an increasing phenomenon).

Thanks!
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Old 11-05-2007, 07:42 PM   #3
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Vegabond Man is probably the guy you want to talk to. I bought a SeeLevel gauge from him, and he mentioned how to wire a third switch for the service bay, but I didn't feel the need to do it. I think it involved adding a relay, not using a four-way circuit.

Good luck!
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Old 11-05-2007, 08:13 PM   #4
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Vagman's method is to add a relay controller for the pump, which can be conveneintly located near pump, then replace switches in the coach (and add IIRC up to 3 more for a total up to 5?) that have the LED capacity built in. The new switches are a momentary contact type that closes the ground leg thru the relay which either contacts to close the pump circuit if pump was off, or opens the circuit (shutting off pump) if it was on.

Frank talks about his various upgrades including the pump switch mod here.
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Old 11-05-2007, 08:27 PM   #5
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Jim and eMike:

Thanks for the quick response! I was hoping for the simple method, but guessed that relays would need to be involved to set up a 3-4-5 way. I just hate having to run into the coach to turn on the pump when I'm working in the utility bay. I tend to track more dirt when I'm in a hurry. I'd forgotten how often I used the utility bay switch in my old Vectra.

The LED factor is a bonus. If it's significantly easier to not have one, I'll pass on the LED. But it sounds like the same amount of work, just a little more for the parts.

Frank offered to help me with a RO installation (if we can cross paths) and I'm interested in the tank gauges, too. Guess I'll end up asking for help with the switches too. I sure hope we can meet up soon!
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Old 11-05-2007, 08:32 PM   #6
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Related questions:

I see that Frank uses a pump controller in his setup. Does this mean that the existing system does not? Is it possible to add a switch if I forego the LED? Can anyone explain the "flow" of current in the OEM system that allows a 3-way?

Thanks for allowing me access to your brains.
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Old 11-05-2007, 09:25 PM   #7
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Power comes from a fuse panel in the rear. Depends on year and model. Goes to the switch in the bathroom, it is a single pole double throw. Two wires go from that switch to the switch on the tank monitor, which is the same spdt. This is the same wiring as the light switches used in your house in halls and stairways. Each switch swaps the power from one of the 2 wires to the other, allowing each switch to control the circuit. The wire goes from the monitor switch to the pump. You could just add another circuit, power from a fuse through a switch to the pump, but when it was on the other 2 switches would do nothing. Frank's method is the cleanest.

Dale
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Old 11-05-2007, 09:42 PM   #8
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I'm guessing, but based on the operation of the two OEM switches (control panel & toilet room), I'd say we have the 12V equivalent of the Three Way Light Switch. Substitute the 12V ground wire for the neutral, and the pump for the light and that's how I'd guess the existing setup is wired.

If that's true, then there should be three wires @ ea. of the two existing switches. Let us know what you find. You can see Frank's LED above the switch bank on his front console photo. In the toilet room, he drilled a small hole in the bezel ring around the switches, and just above the pump switch, for the LED.

IIRC, the existing 3-way switches have 3 wires to them, so you can install the momentary switch to contact ground for the relay using two of them, and use the 3rd wire to power the LED from the relay controller. You have to then add a short wire from the LED to ground on the new switch.
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Old 11-05-2007, 10:07 PM   #9
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Thanks Guys!

Now I finally understand the "flow". I had been thinking the pump had the power and the ground was interrupted by the switches. Obviously not. Since it works similarly to a 120 volt three way, I'll need a relay to make the 4th way, or smart switches (do they come in 12 volts?), like Luminear makes.

Now, hopefully I'll hear from Frank with more details.
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Old 11-06-2007, 05:47 AM   #10
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To use more than two switches in the system WRV uses requires a special 4 way switch and running two wires to that switch and back. See here to show four way switch.

http://www.lightingfacts.com/3w4w%20how.htm

With this system the only way, that I know of, to have a light tell when the pump is on is to run a separate wire from the "pump end" of this circuit to the lights. It is possible that with frank's system the signal to power the diode is sent up the same wire that is used to activate the relay.

Dale
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Old 11-06-2007, 06:45 AM   #11
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Unless I misunderstand the question or there is a quirk in the current wiring of the Coach, I'll offer that you can put any number of SPST (single pole-single throw) switches in the circuit to control the pump. All switches must be put in parallel to make/break the hot side.

If a 12 volt LED is desired (from an auto parts store), it can be installed in series with a Diode (Radio Shack) from the switched "HOT" side so it glows only when that particular switch is in the "ON" position. The other lead of the LED must go to a "ground".

If done this way, commonly available, inexpensive parts will allow you to control the pump from any number of locations.

A switch having an internal LED without a Diode will cause a bit of a difference because the LED will glow when any switch is in the "ON" position.

NOTE: LEDs alone are low voltage items and if using an LED without a built-in resistor in the circuit, a 470-Ohm resistor must be used in series with the LED to prevent burnout of it when used in a 12-volt circuit.

If you want to e-mail me, I can send you a simple schematic of the method.
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:28 AM   #12
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Bob,

Thanks for the fast email and time spent on the diagrams. There is a difference in your set up and WRV's. With WRV's set up either switch can turn the pump off and on. With your set up, to turn the pump off, you have to turn off all of the switches. This could require checking all of the switches. Check the link in my last post to see 3 way (like present WRV wiring) and 4 way systems. 3 way is for two switches and 4 way is for three or more. Any method of adding switches that have the ability to turn the pump off and on require adding some wiring. The system like Frank installed is what I would probably use if I wanted to do this. If I was not using the R.O. system then it would be handy to be able to turn the pump off while filling the tank.

takepride,

Let me know how that "VSD pump works for you, I have had some trouble with cycling and pulsating in mine.


Dale
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Old 11-06-2007, 01:04 PM   #13
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Dale,
You are correct. In order for the pump to be off, all switches must be in the off position. If you want an either/or situation, you can use the same wiring that WRV used for the lights over the bed, which is a 3-way type circuit.

I'm a bit of a nut in that I like to have all switches down when in the off position. I suppose it's because I'm a bit simple (you have but to ask Peg about that).
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Old 11-06-2007, 07:09 PM   #14
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OK Guys, here is my stuff.

I used a 15 AMP Intelitec pump controller. This is a solid state relay that runs the high amperage current directly to the pump so that light weight (14 gauge) wires can be run thru the coach. There are 5 connections to the relay (controller).
1-12VDC in
2-Pump out
3-Ground
4-Input from the string of switches - this is a momentary ground that flips the latching relay one way or the other
5-indicator signal out to power led indicators at each switch.

The number of switches is limited only to the 100 milliamp indicator output (that translates to a lot of led's). You can run them like a string of lights.

This controler sells for $59.40. Here's a link to the intelitec site.Intelitec Controler

There is also a 10 amp controler that has no signal output for those of you who don't want the led's. It's a little cheaper @ $35.20. This is the unit I've seen in Monaco's and Country Coaches.

I picked the heavy duty unit so I could have the led indicators at each switch since I can't hear the pump running unless I'm right next to it.

I contacted the WRV supplier of the switches (can't remember the brand name, but it's on the switch) so I could have matching switches in the head. They won't sell one or two, but they sent me a couple at n/c. I used Cole Hersee rocker switches for the rest of the locations - their p/n is 58027-02.

I hope that helps clear the air.
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