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Old 02-18-2019, 07:02 PM   #1
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A Gift From Whitehorse, YT -- part 2

Last August a kid in a pick-up clipped the front of my coach. Part 1 can be found here: A Gift From Whitehorse,YT This was the fourth time this past summer when an on-coming driver turn left in front of me while I was making a right turn. In this case I began my 90 degree right turn on a "fresh" green light, from a standing stop. Three quarters of the way into my turn I was hit by a pick-up making a left turn who failed to yield to on-coming traffic. Yukon Territory traffic law was clear in this situation, which driver has the right-away and the driver who must yield. Straightforward right? Wrong! The Canadian police do not determine fault, so no citation was handed out. And, my Progressive adjuster determined I was at fault, that I was the one who collided with the pick-up. Mind you, this was not a small rural intersection. It was a large multi-lane intersection. I was making a hard-right turn (steer wheels fully cut) from a dead stop immediately following the traffic light changing from red to green. My speed less than 10mph. The pick-up driver had to travel across multiple lanes around a 14 foot meridian to the point of contact. So, here is my point. A $100 dashcam would have shown the story. Since common sense, physics and established traffic law do not apply when an insurance company determines fault, perhaps a video of what actually happened will help them understand the obvious. Will not leave home without one.
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:46 PM   #2
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What kind of dash cam did you end up getting?
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:00 AM   #3
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Iím curious to know how the same situation occurred 4 times in one summer. There are 2 scenarios I can see here.
1) The oncoming driver had a green left turn arrow prior to your light turning green and may have been trying to get through on a yellow or red light.
2) Both lights turned green at the same time and the oncoming driver attempted to beat you or did not realize that a motorhome would need to swing wide to make the turn.
Either situation would present an element of surprise.

Did they all occur in the same area? Could it be a regional anomaly?
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Old 02-19-2019, 09:05 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marjoa View Post
What kind of dash cam did you end up getting?
Thinkware dash cam: https://www.us.thinkware.com/products-f200
Bought this one as a stop gap until I decide on a system that functions as a dash cam and rearview camera.


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Old 02-19-2019, 09:33 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by RVPioneer View Post
There are 2 scenarios I can see here.
1) The oncoming driver had a green left turn arrow prior to your light turning green and may have been trying to get through on a yellow or red light.
2) Both lights turned green at the same time and the oncoming driver attempted to beat you or did not realize that a motorhome would need to swing wide to make the turn.
Either situation would present an element of surprise.
1) Not a controlled left turn -- no arrow signal.
2) Both drivers given a green light at the same time.

The granular detail including pictures can be found here: https://1drv.ms/f/s!ArBcunudL8RpgopnLVJZIdSfATtUqQ


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Old 02-19-2019, 09:38 PM   #6
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Did they all occur in the same area? Could it be a regional anomaly?
No, they all occurred in vastly different locations. One incident occurred heading north on the Seward highway toward Anchorage. I slowed to make a right turn into a gas station when an on-coming car darted from the left lane to beat me to station entry. Another at a four way stop in Washington. I began a right turn from a dead stop to have a car from the opposite side race across to get ahead of me. The commonality in all of them is, impatient drivers.

My plan is to replace the current dashcam with a DVR system that will record front, left, right and rear views. With a monitor, it will also function as a back-up camera and provide views of any left or right blind-spots. Many commercial trucks have DVR systems. However, all the tech in the world is not a substitute for attentive defensive driving. Sometimes, as Whitehorse showed, even that isn't enough.

Sadly, in the end it is all about protecting yourself. Protection from dishonest drivers and your own insurance company.

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Old 02-19-2019, 09:51 PM   #7
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Whats the laws for turning in Canada? Many states, you have to turn into the closest lane. Meaning the one turning right, has to turn into the right lane, leaving the left lane for oncoming traffic to turn left into. Yes, oncoming traffic has the right of way. But, a vehicle turning right, is not oncoming. I have seen intersections where the oncoming traffic has a left turn green arrow, and you have a right turn green arrow. A solid white line, means you cannot change lanes, Meaning the RV should have stayed within the right lane. Some states will get you for an illegal lane change.

Quote:
Road Rules 101: Turning onto a multilane road


​This question comes up most often for drivers who are turning left onto a four-lane road and want to be in the outside lane. In that case, the answer is no. Turn from the lane that is closest to the direction you want to go and turn into the lane closest to the one you came from. Once you've completed your turn, you can change to another lane if you need to, and only when it's safe to do so. You may remember your driver's-ed teacher saying, "Establish your lane in the closest lane before moving right."
The only time you legally can head straight to the outside lane is when you're on a road with two left-turn lanes and you're in the outside left-turn lane turning into an outside lane.

Police did not determine culpability, possibly because both were wrong, the RV did not maintain lane control, and the other driver failed to prevent the accident. It seems the insurance agreed that it is a mess.
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Old 02-19-2019, 10:06 PM   #8
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The Canada Yukon Drivers Basic Handbook states:
Fresh green light ó a fresh green light is one that has just turned green. Donít move forward until youíve scanned the intersection to make sure itís clear.

Making a left turn on a steady green light ó when you are making a left turn, you must yield to oncoming traffic and wait for a safe gap before you turn.
The driver was not in a designated left turn lane with an arrow signal. In this situation I was the "oncoming traffic." How I choose to maneuver, to go straight through the intersection or how many lanes I used during a slow right turn is irrelevant. He failed to yield thus causing the collision.

Canadian police do not determine fault. That is different from "did not" or could not determine fault.
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:05 PM   #9
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So what was the reasoning for your insurance for not standing behind you? Did they pay off for the other driver?


You are right, police do not assign culpability, but they do issue tickets if they determine laws were broken. What was their reason for not issuing a ticket if it is as cut and dry as you imply?


I hope you sent more then that pic to your insurance.


Maybe it would be a good idea for a subsection, just on dealing with police, insurance companies, and other drivers after an accident.
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Old 02-20-2019, 09:01 PM   #10
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So what was the reasoning for your insurance for not standing behind you? Did they pay off for the other driver? You are right, police do not assign culpability, but they do issue tickets if they determine laws were broken. What was their reason for not issuing a ticket if it is as cut and dry as you imply? I hope you sent more then that pic to your insurance.

Maybe it would be a good idea for a subsection, just on dealing with police, insurance companies, and other drivers after an accident.
Superburban, my apologies for sounding testy in my last post. Lots of frustration as to how this played out. The police simply said they write a report and that is it. For pictures and a detailed account provided to Progressive go to: https://1drv.ms/f/s!ArBcunudL8RpgopnLVJZIdSfATtUqQ

As far as the insurance companies reasoning? It came down to the fact I could not prove I began my turn from a standing stop when the light changed from red to green. And, the kid driving the pick-up had a friend show-up at the scene before the police arrive a claim to be a witness.

Dash cam! This would have cut through the BS in a hurry. In my mind a must have since traffic laws and common sense are not considered by the insurance company when determining fault. I am not finished with Progressive yet. And yes, Progressive paid the other guys claim.
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Old 02-21-2019, 12:35 AM   #11
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No problems here, I tried to not sound adversarial. I do not have the elegance in my thoughts as I once had.


Where on his truck, did the vehicles collide.


I think what hurts you the most, is that your RV is sitting across the lines. Even your diagrams suggest that you crossed the line. One of the companies that I drove for, said that when ever possible, move the truck form the roadway. Yours is a great example why. The pics all make it look like you crossed the line. I would not have let that pic of the coach sitting on the line go forward. Even if it went to court, A jury would likely treat it as evidence against you.


Its your actions afterwards, and what you say that matters more then what actually happened.


Dash cameras are good, but their perspective on the cheaper ones, looks like you are further forward then you are. I have a cheap one in my van, and reviewing the videos, it looks like I am stopped in the middle of the intersections.
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Old 02-21-2019, 12:49 AM   #12
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The other big tip I was taught, is to have as many others as you can, look at the pics, and narrative, before you submit it.


I would have stressed that the accident had to have happened before the debris, about 1/2 way back on the RV. Showing that you had to have been in your lane. I would also have stressed that the length of the debris field, proves that there was a major difference between the two vehicles.


I'm no expert, but I did stay at a Holiday inn once.



One of the things I hate the most, is dealing with insurance companies.



Best of luck to you. The rebuttal is decent, hope it does the job.
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Old 02-21-2019, 01:01 AM   #13
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Making a right turn in a 40í coach from the right lane to the right lane, without crossing over into another lane will result in the rear tires jumping the curb. I can only imagine what the Yukon rules are against driving a motorhome on the sidewalk.

I have Progressive as well and while I am not planning a trip to the great white north, I will be calling them tomorrow.
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Old 02-21-2019, 10:41 AM   #14
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If you have to enter another lane, it is your responsibility to be sure it is clear. But that does not apply here, the OP says he never entered the other lane until after the accident. Looking at the overhead shot, there looks to be no reason to even come close.
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