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Old 10-12-2011, 02:16 PM   #15
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Thanks Kraig, excellent advice. I'll probably just go with whatever Freightliner recommends although they did have a recall several years ago on some problems they (Freightliner) was having with some hydraulic fluids.

I'm still looking for a work-around of either having to use a Sauer Danfoss pump #5501 3576 5160 160, i.e., finding an equivalent, available replacement OR finding one on the shelf someplace. Really have appreciated all the help I've rec'd from you, EngineerMike and others the past week. ray
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Old 10-12-2011, 02:42 PM   #16
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Correction of the U.S. company chain who carries Sauer Danfoss pumps in my last post (there may be others as well). I thought Dick at 562-921-3335 said "Bearing" Fluid and the correct name and address is:
Berendsen Fluid Power Inc.
14565 Valley View Ave
Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
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Old 10-13-2011, 07:54 PM   #17
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Just for posterity (can't get too much duplication of Part# info), the 08/09 hydraulic pump on the Alpines w/the PTO pump drive off the transmission is:

Pump is a Turolla brand, division of Sauer Danfoss
Part# Nomenclature: DE2R-38SH-BB-104-32-N104-NNN-000-BA-AN-NNN
Description:
D-Series Tandem Gear Pump
Front disp: 38cc (which is toward rear of coach as mounted)

Rear disp: 31.8cc (which is toward front of coach)

Rotation: RH
Drive: SAE 13 TOOTH SPLINE, 22mm [7/8 in] dia x 41mm [1.62in] Extension, 30mm [1.18in] Effective Spline
Mounting: SAE B, 2 Bolt (Standard)
Front Pump Inlet: 1 5/16-12 SAE O-Ring Boss
Front Pump Outlet: 1 1/16-12 SAE O-Ring Boss
Rear Cover Inlet: 1 5/16-12 SAE O-Ring Boss
Rear Cover Outlet: 1 1/16-12 SAE O-Ring Boss
Controls: NONE
Relief Valves: NONE
According the Berendsen, using the name plate # off my pump. Cost as of this writing is ~$550 + shipping & tax if applicable, and pumps are available in the U.S.

Relief is by 2150psi valve for steering/brakes, and 2750psi emergency overflow (spills out on ground, all over tranny, makes a big mess), both in square "HIC" or Hydraulic Control Circuit, which is really an aluminum machined manifold full of control gizmo's, located inside DS frame rail above & ahead of fan motor. There is an electrical control gizmo on the HIC that I haven't identified at this time, but working on it (think its the fan motor control???); when I find it I will post the HIC schematic to the tech library. If somebody needs the partial schematic in the mean time, you can PM me w/your email address.
Pre-08's (i.e. pre ULSD) used the Sauer fan controller, not the HIC.
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Old 10-16-2011, 03:26 AM   #18
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Hydraulic Oil Cooler Failure - Lessons Learned

This is lengthy. I apologize, but I wanted to capture my hydraulic cooler failure resulting in the loss of substantial hydraulic fluid and subsequent fix while it was still fresh.

Lessons learned from my Flagstaff AZ hydraulic cooler repair.

Freightliner (928-522-0400): Personnel were competent and great and especially Daniel (an outstanding tech). Freightliner could probably improve their bottom line and customer satisfaction by at least 20 to 30 percent by more parallel processing of each customer’s needs, parts, and service with an expediting plan and expediter assigned to each job without adding but maybe one new person. I was there 9 days!

Northern Heavy Duty Radiator off of Hwy 89 north in Flagstaff: Tom, owner or manager was an outstanding welder; straightened and welded my bowed aluminum end of my cracked HC end cap; welded an extra Al plate around the entire over-stressed end plate to strengthen.

Winslow Ford, Winslow AZ (about 50 miles away, 928-243-5397): Pat, the LanDoll tow truck driver & Clayton, supervisor/mgr @ Winslow Ford were excellent and prompt. I was towed 187 miles.

Alpine irv2 Forum: Support and info I rec’d was incredible. My heartfelt thanks go to commentators for the expert advice, especially EngineerMike and Kraig.

Hydra Power in Portland OR (503-777-3361): Mike Burris, on his own initiative and without any possibility of business from me while I’m stranded in AZ, located a 1” pressure relief flow/check valve dealer/distributor in Arizona (Hydraulic Controls, Inc. in Phoenix 602-278-6088) who went out of his way to ensure that I received a HYDAC 1 NPT hex-shaped valve compatible, using a couple of 1” O-ring to 1” pipe thread adapters, replacing my existing 65 psi check valve (which incidentally was a Model HSP – Hard Seat, carbon steel, 1001-16-65 SAE compression end fitting. Note this was not a square-shaped Parker C1620S65 (letter “S” not number “6”) inline flow/check valve shown on the WRV hydraulic cooler bypass line schematic (compliments of EngineerMike).

NOTE – all 3 of the following PRV valves were 1” and rated to open (crack) at 65 psi:

The Parker valve had a 40 gpm rated flow rate with a SS poppet and can be found at: Parker - C1620S65

The HSP check valve I had in my HC bypass line which may have plugged or malfunctioned had a 36 gpm rated flow rate and can be found at the following link: Dynamic Fluid Components - Pressure Gauges, Hydraulic Motors, Gear Pumps, and Hydraulic Accessories

My new HYDAC check valve has a flow rate of 40 gpm at 30 psi pressure differential and an 80 gpm at a 120 psi pressure differential. Specs on the HYDAC can be found at: HYDAC Literature and select Check (RV/RVP) in the left menu column

AKG of America (Michael Canaday, 919-304-1314) and AKG Thermal Systems (Gary Chestnut, 919-563-4871) provided expert and timely information relative to the horizontal stack of 4 coolers assembly they supplied WRV, top to bottom, Charge Air Cooler, Radiator, Hydraulic Oil Cooler, cab A/C Condenser – all painted with black powder coat finish. But according to Michael, their hydraulic coolers were rated for 150 psi service but were actually pressure tested at slightly more than twice this 150 psi pressure rating.

Most Likely Over-pressurization Cause: Virtually all the subject matter experts I’ve consulted believe my cooler problem was most likely due to a clogged or sticking check valve (pressure relief valve in the cooler bypass line). WRV’s solution to over pressurizing hydraulic coolers in their 2008/2009 coaches (as reported by others) was to add at the WRV factory or send out an over pressurization kit or specified parts to be installed in the field. According to a WRV schematic provided by EngineerMike, WRV’s bypass line / check valve fix schematic is titled HYDRAULIC COOLER BYPASS, part #7601-601358-00, schematic sketch dated 10/01/07.

Additional “Fix” Info: WRV’s fix added a nominal 1” bypass line containing a 1” check/pressure relief valve set to open if pressures in the cooler exceeded 65 psi allowing hydraulic fluid at the entry end of the hydraulic cooler to have two parallel means of getting back to the reservoir, i.e., through the cooler and through the WRV add-on bypass line containing the 65 psi check/pressure relief valve. In an over-simplified form this is equivalent to horizontal flows in a parallel pipe branch having a common header that converges back into a single pipe where the Bernoulli Principle and conservation of matter can be applied to determine flows in each of the parallel cooler and bypass lines. The amount of flow through the bypass and the cooler can be estimated making simplifying assumptions recognizing that the head loss (pressure drop) across the two parallel paths are equal and the flows through the two paths total the flow from the Sauer Danfoss Hydraulic Integrated Circuit (HIC), Steering. and Fan master manifold (believed to be on the order of about 5 gallons per minute, but yet to be confirmed by actual measurement) to the hydraulic filter and reservoir.

Cooler Hydraulic Oil: Freightliner completed the repair adding nearly 10 gallons of Mobil NUTO H32 hydraulic fluid which is what they said they use on buses that they repair having a similar pump and power boost configuration as on my Alpine. Also, a Sauer Danfoss Fan Drive Manifold schematic furnished by EngineerMike referenced, but did not necessarily specify ISO 32 hydraulic oil, and a pump manufacturer hydraulic oil cross reference I found indicated the optimum cSt viscosity range for Danfoss pumps was 21-39. All of this seemed to confirm Freightliner’s recommendation to use ISO 32 hydraulic fluid.

See the following link for the optimum Danfoss viscosities.
Hydraulic Fluid Chart Hydraulic Oil Table and Cross Reference.

See the two following links for NUTO H32:1) Nuto H Series
2) http://www.imperialoil.ca/Canada.../...NDESNuto_H.pdf

See the following link for Chevron Rando HDZ 46, the hydraulic oil I believe WRV probably used based on talking to a Yakima Chevron products dealer who bought bulk HDZ 46 for WRV (I’ve posted info on this before); I have no way to prove this however:
Chevron Rando® HDZ 15, 22, 32, 46, 68, 100 | Global Industrial Solutions

Remaining Punch List: Even though my hydraulic cooler has now gone through two over pressurization failure excursions resulting in a cooler end plate pin-hole weld leak and a small crack, I believe with the replacement of the pressure relief valve in the WRV bypass line, the slightly lighter weight hydraulic fluid, the welding and strengthening of my cooler end plate, the test drive confirmation by Freightliner and my initial several hundred miles, I’m good to go for quite a while. However, I plan to continue researching anything related to this over-pressurization problem, including:
1) Replace the hydraulic filter cutting up the current filter looking for signs of constrictions (EngineerMike recommendation),
2) Bench test the removed PRV to determine the crack pressure (EngineerMike recommendation)
3) Check the pressures and flows in the hydraulic cooler / bypass line (Freightliner did not have a good way to do this),
4) Replace the existing repaired cooler with a new OEM unit from AKG Thermal Systems (roughly a 6-week delivery schedule depending upon back-log)
5) Check out the conformance of flows and pressures to the specs for the Sauer Danfoss pump and the HydraMax power boost unit.
6) Determine if it makes sense to add one or more pressure transducers in the hydraulic line system, with a corresponding read outs at driver’s instrument panel
7) Keep hydraulic exit line back pressures as low as possible by replacing the filter and hydraulic oil at regular intervals

Any additional comments or suggestions are always appreciated.

ray
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Old 10-16-2011, 04:56 PM   #19
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Ray- my recommendation on opening up the existing hydraulic filter is mainly to check for debris that might indicate damage from running rig low on hydro oil. Pump, fan motor, etc. need the oil for internal lubrication. If you caught it in time, should be no big deal. If filter is full of metal shavings, need to consider the source.

I believe flow to fan motor is variable, as opposed to flow to steering & brakes, which I know is flow-controlled via a specialty valve in the HIC manifold to stay at 5gpm (I've had this tested on my rig and seen it work in real time). Fan motor circuit should be capable of higher flow than that IIRC, and does not incorporate flow control (at least of the same type). Fan motor flow potential should be more proportional to engine RPMs, and (following is theory till I figure the rest of the HIC diagram out; there's a part# I cant find on Sauer's website) actual output to fan is trimmed by electronically operated valve based on signal from ECU driven by temp sensor input.
YMMV, & IWIHTDP#
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Old 10-31-2011, 11:57 PM   #20
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Mike and Ray- Even though I have the same power train as the 08-09's with the the PTO driven pump, it appears that I have different pump number. Mine is a Sauer Danfoss # 163D71547, made in USA. Precision Fluid Power said it is a good number and they do stock it. Not cheap, $1039.00 plus freight. I don't have the spec's so I don't the difference between the pumps?
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Old 11-01-2011, 05:12 PM   #21
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Kraig- I'm just guessing, sounds like Precision has one in stock and has the price pumped up nicely.
Sauer Danfoss # 163D71547 is the exact pump on my rig; has a cute little tag so stating. Sauer apparently sold the division that made that pump since they had more than one division competing making pumps. On visiting Berendsen Fluid Power, both via email to the Spokane office and in person to the West Sacramento, CA office, they fed the S.D.# into their computer and spat out the Turolla (now the division of Sauer under which all their hydraulic pumps of this sort are now mfg'rd) pump number I gave in post# 17 above as an exact replacement. That's the one I was quoted ~$550, and in stock w/several units in Berendsen's possession in the U.S.A.
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Old 11-01-2011, 10:54 PM   #22
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Thanks for clearing it up. I figured that wasn't a great price.
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brake failure, hydraulic cooler, hydraulic leak, over-pressurize hc, steering failure



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