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Old 06-09-2010, 03:51 PM   #29
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Driver, I have a question for you. If the issue is the pin sticking due to its composition and the potential for swelling of the pin material due to water vapor does it make any difference if it is the 66mm or 73mm brakes?
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Old 06-09-2010, 05:00 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetar View Post
Driver, I have a question for you. If the issue is the pin sticking due to its composition and the potential for swelling of the pin material due to water vapor does it make any difference if it is the 66mm or 73mm brakes?
jetar, Thank you for the question and allowing me the opportunity to share my opinion in this matter.

In my conversations with service centers they have always told me that when they disassemble a set of brakes that they always come apart and they are not stuck on the pins. The pins therefore do not contribute to any significant degree the mechanism of failure that may cause the Bosch caliper to stick. This is true in reference to ZOHT brakes. Lubricating pins and slides is a good idea however it will not prevent a caliper from seizing.

In the matter of ZOPS brakes, that recall was accomplished by replacing the pins and or defective caliper if the caliper could not be restored to operating condition. This failure affected the entire cross section of vehicles including many hydraulic brake equipped school busses.

The problem with the Bosch ZOHT 66mm caliper that is being recalled is all about the pistons. Both the 66mm and the 73mm caliper I would expect use the same material in the manufacture of the phenolic resin in the pistons. Although a recall will be ordered for all 66mm calipers on Workhorse Chassis I'm not sure how extensive or inclusive the Federal campaign will be.

Ford 24K & 26K chassis have Bosch calipers. 73 of the front and 66 on the rear. Workhorse uses 66mm all the way around on the 22K and 20K chassis. WCC does not use the 73mm piston but upgraded to the Arvin Meritor Quadraulic 4 piston caliper on all gas powered chassis of 24K and greater. I understand that the Peak Chassis use 73mm calipers all the way around on some units.

If I may rephrase your question from pins to pistons, I would not feel uncomfortable is stating that both the 66mm and the 73mm may suffer from the same anomaly which is induced by absorption of moisture into the phenolic.

It is expected that the NextGen caliper (as I call it) will be impervious to moisture absorption over the life of the caliper.
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Old 06-09-2010, 08:25 PM   #31
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Thank you for your response Driver and also for correcting my misuse of the word pins instead of piston. I meant piston and your response is appreciated. Now the question is, since WRV is out of business, we who have a chassis other than Workhorse are left on our own since Bosch has no direct responsibility for its defect.
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Old 06-09-2010, 08:45 PM   #32
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Now the question is, since WRV is out of business, we who have a chassis other than Workhorse are left on our own since Bosch has no direct responsibility for its defect.
jetar, It is very unfortunate to be in that predicament. I can only suggest that going forward when the "NextGen" caliper is provided to the market that you will have the opportunity to install a caliper that will go the distance without we hope any further problems.

Workhorse's function in this recall is to provide the labor while using Bosch parts which are the subject of the recall. Since no Peak Chassis were involved in the investigation, perhaps you can file a complaint with NHTSA in regard to your Bosch calipers. I also expect that in time Ford owners will begin having issues although I have not seen any reports of seizures at this time. Time however is plentiful and it certainly will catch up to those calipers installed on those chassis and I fully expect that this issue will present itself to that group of owners as well. This matter will not conclude in my opinion with only a recall on Workhorse chassis.
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Old 06-10-2010, 12:28 PM   #33
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There is an expectation that the recall will be extended to Ford chassis' using the 66mm calipers, tho that is not more than rumor at this point. It could be that the Bosch 73's on Alpines are Ford parts (the later Meritors are Ford parts), and possibly that would be the point of entry for recall coverage for Alpines tho the route may be circuitous. Otherwise, NHTSA would have to prevail on Bosch to go direct to chassis owners riding on their brakes to provide recall type coverage; I don't know if the gubernmental machinery is in place for such a recall (note there is perhaps some precedent: the recall on some later model Teleflex pedal assemblies wherein Teleflex or its current owner is doing the recall).

For NHTSA to force such a recall would require the agency to make some sort of finding that the failures experienced on the Workhorse platforms were generically and logically applicable to all caliper designs of the type in question and for the use (motorhomes). If you are experiencing brake lockup or have in the past and feel the sticking piston is the problem (could be you've had discussion w/the service facilities that have assisted leading you to this conclusion) then a complaint to NHTSA on the matter would be in order complete w/particulars on the caliper being used and specifics of the problem experienced. Absent complaints, NHTSA has other fish to fry.

Just for some background: Workhorse has their recall in place for motorhome chassis' only. They use the 66mm calipers on a much larger fleet of delivery vans for the likes of UPS & FedEx and have minimal problems w/those brakes. Why exactly has been subject of discussion centering on the dramatically higher mileage of delivery vans and equally dramatically different usage of brakes around town starting their first day of service, vs. the long-on-highway mileage, but not-much-mileage-per-year pattern of motorhomes. No complaints on delivery vans = no recall. No complaints on 73mm calipers = no recall (note that the opposite is not automatic, i.e. complaints don't automatically result in recall but zero complaints assure zero recall). Hard to say whether Bosch would drag their feet and stumble around like idiots for years trying to ignore first customer then NHTSA complaints on 73mm calipers (like they did on 66mm calipers), but pretty certain they will ignore 73's till customers demonstrate there is an issue to deal with. Worthy of note, the new 66 pistons will be used in all rigs going forward, motorhomes and delivery vans. Perhaps new 73's will also include the new phenolic formulation and revised clearance specs derived in the 66mm investigations that were reluctantly pursued once NHTSA told Workhorse/Bosch they were going to face a mandatory recall if they didn't get off their butts and recall "voluntarily." The 66 recall was very far from Bosch's (and Workhorse's) finest hour protecting customer safety (see the Workhorse Forum here in iRV2 and do a search on "brakes" to find discussion going back thru years of WH/Bosch blaming brake problems on stupid, senile, moron motorhome owners and their inability to properly drive without using their brakes or to maintain their brakes. Just as a guess, I'd say Bosch won't do any better if there are the same failures w/their 73mm calipers (using history as a guide), making official complaints important if you have them.
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:03 PM   #34
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I submitted a verbal complaint to NHTSA 9/16/2009 and followed up with a written response on the form they sent me several months ago. I assume they will not act on one complaint and I am hoping that others of my vintage and with similar problems will call and file complaints too! I find it hard to believe, but it is probably true, that NHTSA would allow a known brake problem on a 15 ton motorhome to be traveling down the road with a serious and known brake issue, but not cause the manufacturer of the faulty brake to fix all of their problems.
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Old 09-03-2010, 02:02 PM   #35
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After the recall about Bosch brakes installed on our Alpine 02 the calipers were replaced with the ZOH T type. Now I see a recall notice regarding several Motor Home Mfgs. about the ZOH T calipers. Since WRV is no longer in business I would like to know what the problem is.
Reason I want to know is driving From Eagle Nest, NM to Taos, NM the road is very winding on the down hill side. When we got on the flats I smelled the brake pads overheating. This has never happened before even under more severe braking conditions. Would appreciate any comments as to what the recall is about and what is the remedy.
Looking at the several posts in this thread, it appears there is more than one issue. Doug says he's not had the overheating problem on more severe downgrades; but that Taos-Eagle Nest road is very challenging, like the descent into Silverton where I literally smoked the brakes because the PacBrake had been inadvertently turned off (very scary, but no permanent damage, the brake shop told me.) The recall is for phenolic piston swelling, supposedly caused by moisture in the brake fluid, which is an unlikely thing for those of us who live high and dry. Jetar lives in Florida so he may indeed have wet brake fluid (along with moss in his fuel and lumps in his sugar.) Any correlation between the problem and the climate?
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Old 09-03-2010, 02:13 PM   #36
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Workhorse dealers are working through this issue right now and are installing new Bosch 66mm calipers as a campaign item. All Workhorse W Series W20 through W22 chassis are being recalled and 4 new calipers are being installed.

If you happen to come across a Workhorse dealer that has the new calipers, I might be tempted to go out of pocket and have them replaced on your Alpine. Just sayin' ...
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Old 09-03-2010, 07:07 PM   #37
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Workhorse dealers are working through this issue right now and are installing new Bosch 66mm calipers as a campaign item. All Workhorse W Series W20 through W22 chassis are being recalled and 4 new calipers are being installed.

If you happen to come across a Workhorse dealer that has the new calipers, I might be tempted to go out of pocket and have them replaced on your Alpine. Just sayin' ...
Won't work; the calipers are different size.
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Old 04-15-2012, 01:13 PM   #38
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Does anyone know whether Bosch has upgraded or released a new caliper to replace the 73 mm ZOHT phenolic model? I had both my front calipers replaced (again) in 2010 and am again having the sticking piston problem. I flushed my brake fluid in 2010 and it looks like every 3 years is not enough here in Florida. I started fighting this problem in 2001.

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Old 04-15-2012, 04:06 PM   #39
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Dean- 1) because of the mountainous pain in the rear of having calipers stick, IIWMI'd be flushing these calipers w/fresh Dot3 every year as regular PM.

2) W/that said, I heard somewhere (not from Bosch) that the 73's would receive the new phenolic going forward. Not sure how you verify that actually happened, or that the particular calipers you get are the upgraded design and not some long-on-the-shelf older parts. You could ask at outfits supplying these calipers for a start.

3) Welcome to iRV2, and hope to see you around a bunch.
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:25 AM   #40
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I had a 2000 Alpine with the Bosch brakes that were recalled. Before the recall my right front brake locked up and was difficult to steer and overheated. I was 1200 miles from home on the I-15. I called Bosch tech support and they told me they had never heard of that problem and were no help at all. They probably weren't telling me the truth. I was able to free up the caliper and get the wheel to turn and get it home. In my opinion, I don't think you will get any help from Bosch without WRV. Shortly after I got home I got the recall notice from WRV. The only thing Bosch was replacing was the calipers. In all the posts I read only the calipers were replaced. When I took it to shop to have it inspected, they used a mirror to inspect the outside of the calipers, they could see pad transfer to the rotors. No problem seeing the inside of the rotor ok. the only parts I got from WRV were the calipers. Even though I had 90+% pad left, I put on new pads, turned rotors, new seals or complete brake job. I did change the brake fluid every two years and ran it for 6 years no problem. Even with WRV, I don't think most of us got a whole lot of help then. I kind of think you are on your own. If it were mine, I would regularly inspect the rotors in and out to see if there is any pad stuck to the rotor from a sticking caliper, along with changing the fluid. By using a mirror you can inspect the outside rotor with the wheel on.
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:51 PM   #41
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Engineer Mike, thanks for your quick reply to my inquiry. I have done additional research on this and have found a solution, I hope. I called Safari and they gave me the phone number of Bosch. I called them and they gave me the number of Driveline who are handling this (401-769-2753 Doug Jarvis). He said the new calipers for the 73mm piston brakes have been redesigned and are due in in two weeks. He recomends getting an Anchor Plate kit and Pads. Below are the numbers he gave me:
Caliper 02047749994VU $210 ea
Anchor Plate kit 0204002619 $30 ea
Pads 4153300 $90 set of 2
Order from Fran 954-572-2821 in Florida
I hope this solves my problem and maybe others in the same fix.
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:07 PM   #42
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Dean- couple of questions:
who is Driveline, and what is their relationship (e.g. distributor, subcontractor) to Bosch?
what phone# did you get for Bosch?
by "due in two weeks" do you mean your order delivered to you, or is that when the new phenolic piston calipers will be coming off the assembly line?
Thanks for posting this updated info for posterity.
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