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Old 01-21-2010, 09:37 AM   #1
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Brake Bleeding Question

On my Alpine the ABS unit is in the ceiling of the back bay just in front of the rear wheels. This means IMHO the fluid travels further to the front wheels than the rear wheels. We have 2 lines going from the master cylinder to the ABS unit and from there there are 4 lines going to the wheels. If this is correct the front fluid travels about 200 inches further than the rear. My question is would it make sense to bleed the RF, LF, RR and then LR?

I made a pair of adapters for a power bleeder for my Alpine from a #6 EDPM rubber plug and a 2 inch brass bolt. None of the adapters worked very well that came with the Motive-Power bleeder I purchased.
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Old 01-24-2010, 10:16 PM   #2
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Hello Wayne:

It does not matter anymore if you bleed the front or the rear first because of the duel brake systems the fluid does not mix other than in the reservoir. Once out of the reservoir they are separate systems. But you should still bleed the furthest wheel first. If you start with the rear bleed the right rear than the left rear and do the same on the fronts.
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Old 01-24-2010, 10:56 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Fernandez View Post
... dual brake systems the fluid does not mix other than in the reservoir.
So does each side of the reservoir get drained as you bleed a single wheel? Or is the dual system a diagonal layout, where each side of an axle uses fluid out of separate sides of the reservoir?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Fernandez View Post
... But you should still bleed the furthest wheel first.
Dave, I think Wayne concludes the front brakes would have longer brake lines to bleed, therefore even though they are closer to the reservoir, they should be bled first. Thoughts?
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Old 01-25-2010, 08:50 AM   #4
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Thanks Dave, makes sense. I am all set to change the fluid now. It should be easy with the power bleeder. I am more concerned with changing the fluid, I don't think I will remove the rear wheels to get at the second bleed valve. Unless I get a lot of air. Thoughts?
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Old 01-25-2010, 11:53 AM   #5
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There are two different dual brake systems.

The most common the front wheels are one system, the rear are another.. This can be dangerous if you loose, as I recall, the FRONT system and get stuck with just the rear.

Page 2: This is rare, in fact I only heard of one car that used it and that was nearly 40 years ago (the 70s) as I recall

This one had 3 wheels on each system, as I recall both front and one rear (The front wheels had 2 slave cylinder/caliper cylinders/each)

That way if you loose 1/2 the system and stand on the brakes you don't spin out like you do with the more common system (locking just the rear wheels is a good way to enjoy "Panavision" as the car spins out)

I doubt you will ever see the 3 wheels each system

So, when you bleed.. Do all 4 wheels, might as well flush out all the old fluid while you are down there.
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Old 01-25-2010, 12:54 PM   #6
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Wa8yxm,
The question isn't weather to bleed the rear brakes but weather it would be sufficient to bleed just the one valve on the rear brakes if changing fluid was the objective. I am sure some fluid would remain but it would be a small amount. The calipers are a 4 pistons design with 2 bleed valves on each wheel. To get at the inner bleed valve on the rear wheels the dual tires need to be removed not a job I want to do if I can replace 90% of the fluid by purging the rear brakes through the top bleed valve. If I get some air then I would remove the rear wheels and do it properly.
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Old 01-25-2010, 01:12 PM   #7
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Wayne- I'm guessing, but I think the two bleed screws address the two banks of pistons, i.e. the inner screw bleeds the inner two pistons, outer screw bleeds the outer pistons. So you'd be leaving the piston contents unbled on one side.

If this was an annual re-bleeding, I'd say you could reasonably ignore that half of the piston contents, but every two years you should get to both bleed screws on each corner. Good time for a wheel-off full brake inspection including both sides of the rotors for cracks, pad transfer, signs of excess heat, etc. Great reason to own a torque multiplier for the lug nuts and some kind of lever device to lift & drag the tire out of the wheel well (plus a good jack which I have, plus really slick jack stand setup which I haven't found as of yet; thinking of making same from 1" allthread & coupler nut, custom fit for the chore of Alpine wheel removal; might need one for rear axle height and one for front).
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Old 01-25-2010, 01:39 PM   #8
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Emike, I know your right but your killing me. I suspect my Motorcycle jack will work good for lifting and positioning the tires. I have a good bottle jack, just need some 12 ton jack stands and the torque multiplier.
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Old 01-25-2010, 03:10 PM   #9
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Wayne:

E Mike is correct and you should bleed both sides of the Caliber since contaminated fluid will be on both sides of the caliber.

I am going to check the brakes and Calibers when I replace the tires in the very near future so I will not have to remove the wheels to bleed/flush the brakes.
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Old 01-26-2010, 12:30 AM   #10
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It's definately getting more complicated as more information is revealed about the braking system, especially the two bleed screws on the calipers.
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Old 01-26-2010, 08:37 PM   #11
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You can borrow my torque multiplier, sockets & torque wrench at the upcoming Vegas rally put on by Alpine SoCal. We'll give Oasis RV Resort a heart attack.
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Old 02-13-2010, 05:04 PM   #12
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Lazy me finally got the Job half done. I changed/bled the front brakes today. I flushed about 1.5 quarts through each caliper. About a quart through the inside bleed port to get it to run clear and a pint through the outside bleed port. Considering the only service they have had in 48,000 miles and 5 years was to change the fluid in the reservoir as a stop gap last summer. The fluid looked relatively good. Slight brown color but clear and the same viscosity as the replacement fluid. I used synthetic Dot 3 not sure it will make much difference.

Now to the rears, I still need to get a torque multiplier so I can remove the wheels.
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Old 02-14-2010, 09:12 AM   #13
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WOW--how did you get to the outside bleed screws on the front wheels -- align the spoke holes or something? The problem truly is with the rear wheels [perhaps less heat /more condensation?]. I wont admit how long the old fluid was in but lets say it been awhile. Accordingly, the inside rear wheel bleed screws were severely rusted [internally]. Can only imagine that the outside screws are in a similar condition. However, removing the rear wheels [at home] is just not something I really want to tackle [ie, jacks, blocking, torque multipliers, pry bars, etc.].
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Old 02-14-2010, 09:33 AM   #14
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Old Scout, The holes in the Alcoa rims allow access, not much though. I used a 7/16 socket on a short extension and was able to get it loose. The hardest part was getting a hose on the fitting to limit the mess. I did not think the front bleed screws were overly tight. Not sure what I will find in the rear.
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