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Old 05-16-2007, 07:28 PM   #15
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Lundy - It is interesting to see all of the responses your email has elicited on the braking pressure of the Alpine.

We have experienced the same thing as you - Our '07 Apex takes a tremendous amount of force to brake it - compared to our '03. When we were at Guaranty in March for warranty work - that was one of our complaints. Their response was "Working as designed".

We still think that it is an issue - Carolyn finds it very difficult to drive because of the extreme effort it takes to brake. We have the same toad as with the '03 and it is the same with or without the toad!

We will be very interested to know what you find out when you have it at WRV. Please be sure to post what they have to say.
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Old 05-16-2007, 10:35 PM   #16
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Thanks for all of your input. I thought that in my old age, I was just getting weaker and probably the only one who thought anything about it!! With my twisted right knee, I have found it very uncomfortable to brake. If anyone else has something to report regarding this issue, please submit it. I plan on bringing it up at the factory next week.
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Old 05-17-2007, 06:13 AM   #17
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We were so impressed with the braking system povided from two test drives we bought a 34 2005.Upon delivery we immediately returned to the dealer because of the excessive brake pressure required.We have not found help anywhere.
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Old 05-17-2007, 08:33 AM   #18
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We had similar problems before we had the master cylinder/booster pump assembly replaced. And you need to replace the whole assembly, not just the master cylinder, in order to get everything to work well together.
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Old 05-18-2007, 06:31 AM   #19
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Barbara & David, when you had the master cylinder/booster pump assembly replaced did Alpine participate in the payment or was it out of your pocket. If so, and you would not mind what was the app. cost.
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Old 05-19-2007, 08:40 PM   #20
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My new 2007 seems to require higher pedal pressure that my 2002, I have added it to my list of items to be checked.

Engineer Mike, could your "harder that normal pressure required on start up" be caused by the fact that WRV has changed the hydraulic fluid from ATF to engine oil which is thicker?

Dale
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Old 05-20-2007, 03:54 PM   #21
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Dale: Perhaps the additional pressure is due to the extra weight from transferring all that "stuff" from the Honda to the coach.

Where did you get the idea that they no longer use hydraulic fluid in their hydraulics?? Or have you been drinking the water at their dump station again?

Norm
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Old 05-21-2007, 05:47 AM   #22
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Norm,

What I was referring to was the hydraulic system that supples power for the power steering, power brakes booster and fan. I obviously need to read my own post better before posting. And I will let you know that now I have the best water available, I just finished installing my Vagabond water system.

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Old 05-21-2007, 03:27 PM   #23
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Dale- My rig's hydraulic oil is stated on the reservoir to be 15W-40 Valvoline Premium Blue. What were they using before, when was [i]before]/i], and I'm not sure why that change would explain the startup-hard-braking, so if you could explicate a little on your theory of relationship that would be great.
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Old 05-25-2007, 11:19 AM   #24
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5/24/70

Mike,

The original fluid used was ATF which is much lighter than the engine oil used now. My thought was that when cold (first use) the new heavier oil might flow slower thru the lines, valves and power units. After the oil heats up and becomes freer flowing it may then flow more like ATF. In my racing days we would use ATF in place of gear oil in our trans and rear end for minimum resistance. I don't know if this might apply for a hydraulic system or not.

On an upbeat note: Richard Fish came out to the service parking lot yesterday to talk to us owners. He was interested in all of our concerns and told us of what was happening with WRV. He said he would look into the braking concerns and get back to us. I will let everyone know what I find out. My interactions with service has been much better than in the past and very much to my liking. With my meeting with Richard Fish and with what seems to be happening in service I have very positive feelings about where WRV is going.

I have limited internet access so my posts may be sporadic for a while.

Dale

5/25/07

My experience at the factory gets better each day. They are making great changes in their operations and going out of their way to make us happy in every way. I will post more info when I get to a better internet connection.

Dale
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Old 05-25-2007, 02:21 PM   #25
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Telling Engineer Mike & Dale they are on the wrong track is as risky as telling God he made a mistake. But.... Alpine's ABS (Wabco/Meritor) brake system is a closed system, has nothing to do with the coach's other hydraulic systems, and contains nothing but plain old automotive DOT3/4 brake fluid. The brake booster is likely on the opposite side of the firewall from the brake pedal and master cylinder, and probably-- though I am not sure about this-- is most likely vacuum boosted. However, the actual braking pressure applied to each brake is controlled by a 12volt Modulator Assembly with an internal pressure pump. I would thus suspect that excessive brake pedal pressure is most likely due to a problem with the booster, the Modulator Assembly, or a combination of the two. Or.. unfortunately, a design issue. Our only option may be to hire Igor to drive the rig.

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Old 05-25-2007, 02:54 PM   #26
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Of course correcting Norm is risky business, but...

The brake boost is hydraulic pressure; see above in this thread for an explanation of the routing. And although the brake fluid side of the system is 'closed,' the shaft actuating boost operation and the shaft actuating brake fluid are either connected end to end, or they are the same shaft just different areas running different pressure elements. We press on the brake pedal, which presses on a rotator arm visible behind the gen cowling, which actuates the shaft assembly that applies boost/pressurizes brake fluid in one motion.

Norm is correct that there is a 12V modulator and internal 12V pressure pump. The pump is the noise we hear when pressing the brake while engine is off. When hydraulic pressure is present (engine running), boost pressure shuts a relay denying power to the 12V pressure pump that is there for emergency braking while coach is not under power. W/engine off & foot on brake, the 12V pressure pump is pressurizing hydraulic fluid in the boost side of the boost/master cylinder assembly to assist in pressurizing the brake fluid side (and it isn't as much boost as when engine is running on my unit, so for those w/pedal pressure issues, emergency braking might be severely troublesome*). Hydraulic fluid returns to the reservoir from the boost side of the brake unit by a non-pressure hose (hose clamp fitting rather than the flare-type high-pressure fittings on the input side of the unit.

* IIWM with pedal pressure issues all the time, I'd try a braking test as follows:
1) move the coach to a modest incline where you can roll ahead or back safely for some distance.
2) assess pedal pressure required to hold the coach in neutral on the incline with engine running.
3) put parking brake on & turn engine off.
4) put foot on brake & release parking brake; assess pedal effort required to hold the coach on incline w/engine off; if coach won't stop, start the engine quickly.
If the #4 effort is the same as #2 effort, I'd say there is something wrong w/the boost operation under power (you are not getting adequate assist) and you should have the system checked out. If you can't stop the coach doing #4, call your insurance company and ask them if you are covered for trying things you read about on the internet which are written by persons of obvious ill repute.

Hope this helps.
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Old 05-26-2007, 10:53 AM   #27
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Darn it! Crow is on Coyote's lunch menu today due to my misreading the thread. I erroneously thought there was an implication that hydraulic fluid had replaced the brake fluid and thus might account for the excessive pressure to apply the brakes.

It is purely conjecture on my part, but taking notice that Meritor/Wabco now has an air-over-hydraulic ABS four-wheel brake system, I wonder if excessive braking effort is endemic to the hydraulically-boosted system now found on the Alpine, the operation of which was so eloquently explained by Mike (Ted is not the only one who can grovel when necessary).

From a technical standpoint, I can see no reason why a hydraulically boosted system should require greater pressure than that found on my Honda. It would seem to be a matter of merely adjusting boost pressure to correspond to the weight of the vehicle.
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Old 05-29-2007, 03:09 AM   #28
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This may have been covered before but I must ask:

As there are numerous references to the newer Coaches requiring more pedal pressure than did the older models, in what year Coach did the excessive brake pedal pressure first become evident?
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