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Old 06-05-2007, 02:13 PM   #15
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What is the thought to disconnect the ABS braking system. Has someone established that is what is creating the very hard pedal pressure? I honestly feel that we know need to go back to WRV and ask them why our pedal pressure is so hard and what correction can they come up with that will correct this problem. I feel that WRV has received enough feedback that there is a definite problem with the brakes. I do not feel that they would allow this to continue very long for fear of a horrific accident with all of these complaints being existent. I am extremely concerned and surprised that WRV has not approached this issue. I have meet Mr. Fish, Ron Doyle & Burk Morgan and I doubt if anyone of them would allow an issue as serious as a brake situation to continue without some form of response.
It appears that none of us has presented this to WRV in a proper manner (no more than a written letter stating the situation with our brakes) and what do they intend to do to correct it. I am going to present my brake situation to them and if you would like me to include your comments I would be delighted to do so. As we all know that no comment will produce no answer. I am planning to present my situation to WRV this evening. It would behoove all of us in my opinion to follow suit. I certainly feel the more folks that issue a complaint our response will create a much better reaction from WRV. It benefits everyone. If and I am certain that it will be corrected that we will be happy campers and the future for WRV to face this issue in the future will be resolved and hopefully non existent.
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Old 06-05-2007, 03:48 PM   #16
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ted III:
What is the thought to disconnect the ABS braking system. Has someone established that is what is creating the very hard pedal pressure? - I am extremely concerned and surprised that WRV has not approached this issue. I have meet Mr. Fish, Ron Doyle & Burk Morgan and I doubt if anyone of them would allow an issue as serious as a brake situation to continue without some form of response.
It appears that none of us has presented this to WRV in a proper manner (no more than a written letter stating the situation with our brakes) and what do they intend to do to correct it. I am going to present my brake situation to them and if you would like me to include your comments I would be delighted to do so. As we all know that no comment will produce no answer. I am planning to present my situation to WRV this evening. It would behoove all of us in my opinion to follow suit. I certainly feel the more folks that issue a complaint our response will create a much better reaction from WRV. It benefits everyone. If and I am certain that it will be corrected that we will be happy campers and the future for WRV to face this issue in the future will be resolved and hopefully non existent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is my hunch about the ABS - because being a weight lifter - I can put 100 lbs. pressure on the pedal or 200+ lbs and the results are the same - like it is not stopping till it drops into 4th gear - which also indicates to me that there is a huge amount of stopping capacity left in the tire traction that is not available in higher gears.

Just my thoughts
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Old 06-05-2007, 04:19 PM   #17
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The ABS modulates pressure to the brake pads (on-off-on-off-on-off...) at a very high cyclic rate. You should be able to feel the "chatter" and may be able to hear it (someone who has locked the wheels sufficiently to engage ABS can respond; I haven't had a panic stop sufficient to do so & don't wish to scramble the coach contents just to try). So if the ABS is involved I think you would know it.
More likely is some peculiarity to the affected coaches (& it could be a different peculiarity, i.e. not all the same issue) that causes low brake boost or poor brake actuation.
What you need first for proper diagnosis is a shop where the tech &/or the service writer has sufficient curiosity in the problem to approach it from a true diagnostician's view, i.e. everything is suspect till proven functional. There is the hydraulic pump, the steering knuckle thru which hydro fluid passes, then Bosch Brake unit (and the hydro lines from/to each), then the brake lines and calipers, and finally the linkages. True diagnostician's approach isn't as easy to come by as it sounds; most all of us like to jump to conclusions, and tech's that are paid piece work have a disincentive to spend time learning anything.
Based on an '04's problems, I'd start looking at the hydraulic pressure & flow hitting the Bosch unit (WRV has a gauge set they can lend to a local shop for this purpose) and at brake fluid condition, but I'm not a brake tech.
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Old 06-05-2007, 07:49 PM   #18
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Mike,

My coach has been being checked over very thoroughly by WRV. So far everything checks OK.

I measured the distance from end of pedal to the pivot point. It is 14 5/8" when the pedals are all the way away from you and 16 3/8" when closest to you. I calculate that to be a 15% change in leverage from with the pedals all of the way out? I think the pressure required was less when the pedals were closest to me about 15%?

My main problem with the increased pressure is at low speed just when coming to a stop, although it is always more than my 2002.


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Old 06-06-2007, 01:42 AM   #19
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I don't believe the ABS feature would cause an increase of pedal pressure. It relieves the pressure on Drum(s)/Caliper(s) in the event of slip, thereby preventing wheel lock-up.

I can't offer anything other than conjecture as to why there has been an increase of pedal pressure because I've not seen a newer system. However, due to my ignorance, I'd like to ask a question:
Has the problem been noticed coincident with the change to hanging and/or adjustable pedals?
If so, could it be associated with the leverage of the arrangement? If so again, could not a change in the ratio of distance between pedal and clevis to the distance beteween clevis and fulcrum be affected? If the clevis cannot be moved closer to the fulcrum, could not a longer lever be used to increase the distance between the pedal and clevis, thereby increasing the mechanical advantage? This last measure would increase pedal travel but would also make them more progressive and easier to operate.

I may be way off on the above and, if so, I ask that you not be too hard on my display of ignorance and conjecture.

The 1999 system, having the 'through the floor' pedal like in older cars, does not require what I'd consider excessive brake pedal pressure. In fact, so far, the system is pretty impressive.
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Old 06-06-2007, 04:41 PM   #20
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E Mike, you have been quite silent on this brake pedal pressure issue. Do you have any thoughts as to the pressure required for applying brake pedal pressure?
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Old 06-07-2007, 08:20 AM   #21
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Pedal effort @ different positions of the adjustable pedals is more of an issue of leg position than pedal geometry. The pedal rotates along essentially the same line whether full in or full out. (this may not be apparent at first glance, but the measurement that determines effort req'd is from the pivot, along a line perpendicular to the direction of travel of the pedal.

However, our leg is more efficient when pushing from an extended position rather than a tight angle at the knee. For that reason, I'd suggest each driver run the pedals forward as far as is comfortable for least fatigue.

I think, based on multiple complaints of severe pedal pressure required, that the hydraulic boost system (engine-mounted pump, lines, steering knuckle, Bosch booster/brake unit) may have some variances on the occasional coach. It would be great if WRV had some calibrated method of assessing pedal pressure but I doubt that exists. If actual problems w/pedal pressure req'd are found, it will require examination of the flow & pressure reaching the Bosch boost unit (temp gauges installed), followed by other diagnostics, so it isn't a simple R&R process for a component to assure a proper repair of this condition.
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:17 AM   #22
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Determining the leg pressure needed to activate the ABS system from a given speed could be established by installing a "Load-Cell" on the pedal and making "panic" stops at different speeds with the pedal(s) set at various positions within the adjustment range.

If this were done, I'd expect Engineer Mike to be correct; more pressure could be exerted by the operator with the Thigh/Calfe angles closer to 45 degrees than at a 90 degrees.

Installing a precision pressure gauge in the hydraulic line downstream of the Booster, in conjunction with using a "Load-Cell" on the brake pedal, would provide comparisons of brake hydraulic pressure per specific brake pedal force. If a test was conducted at various engine revolutions, an Histogram could be developed without the need to drive the Coach ("Static test").

However, a "Static" test would only provide baseline information. For our purposes, a "Dynamic" test (driving) of a Coach rigged in this manner would be the only real method to obtain a meaningful basis of comparison.

Side note: It has been my experience that more variables exist between Humans than between similar manufactured components/systems. Might not this be a contributing factor to the apparently non-universal experiences with the brakes?

When I was working on the development of Passive restraints ("Air bags" and "Inflata-belts") back in the day, our tests were conducted on moving vehicles using Anthropomorphic devices (Test Dummies) of various percentiles to generate meaningful "Dynamic" data. The reason was to address the variables between Human subjects.

Having gone on about this, I'll close with the questions:

Could it be there is no real universal issue with the braking systems installed to the newer Coaches?

Is it possible the adjustable pedals have created more problems than the benefit was intended to provide?

Could a partial solution simply be a longer brake pedal lever?
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Old 06-08-2007, 03:29 AM   #23
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WOW
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Old 06-08-2007, 09:04 AM   #24
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"more variables exist between Humans than between similar manufactured components"
I was going to suggest something equivalent, but I was worried Ted would start to refer to me as an Anthropomorphic device.
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Old 06-08-2007, 09:17 AM   #25
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A very good point.
Perhaps I should not have given him the opening.
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Old 06-08-2007, 09:53 AM   #26
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Lundy, thank you for input about braking, I noticed a difference in the amount pressure that is needed to be applied, When Western introduced their version of adjustable pedals beginning with the 04 models. Late 01-03 models,you just put your foot down. and there was nothing that stopped faster which the Swans can attest too. What I think has happened is there is there is more play in the pedals since they are ajustable. I tell everyone that I have either sold or demoed to bring the pedals closer to your foot to compesate for the slack in the pedal itself. Please try this and post if you find it works for you as I have found, and suggested to others.

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Old 06-08-2007, 10:31 AM   #27
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REALLY A TOUGH CROWD.
My first problem is my dictionary is not wide enough to create that word, But I have a sister who is an English major & a shrink. Is this ever a fun family. Skipping the shrink part I have defined whatever that word was. Although I did not understand the definition it indicated that aliens had made the brakes on the Alpines and that is the reason we cannot understand how to correct the problem. As I understand it there is a great deal of jealousy involved in others in reference to the subject at hand. On the other aspect if we join it with phytomorphic it could certainly be considered that I as a humble man that I could take on the likeness of the holy and predict that these brakes are just to d*** hard to push down and they need to be corrected.
I truly do not believe this post can continue.
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:45 PM   #28
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rmmpe:
Could a partial solution simply be a longer brake pedal lever? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The pressure on the pedal didn't make any difference in stopping power - even when the pressure was doubled.
What made me suspect ABS was the ABS light would come on and stay on (usually in hot weather). Just driving with the ABS warning light on all the time 'makes me nervous'.
So how much pedal pressure doesn't seem to matter = it seems to keep rolling/not stopping.
Like I said - I rather 'lock up' the wheels than smash into something in a panic stop. I can deal with the control by just backing off the pedal when they just break the wheels loose.
I have had to learn to run slow and give an extra 100' of space to vehicles in front - But in a 'Panic Stop' where someone cuts in front of me and slams on their brakes = I'll smash into them.
Hopefully people won't figure this out to make insurance claims this way - of course they may not live through it.
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