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Old 07-27-2007, 04:31 PM   #1
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On July 23 we received a recall notice from Cummins stating they have found a problem with their ISL CM850 engines manufactured between October 2005 and April 2006. Yes, we are included. That's the bad news. But wait, there's more, Cummins says they will put a crankcase pressure sensor on the engine and a red warning light on the dash to warn you that in eight minutes the engine will self-destruct. Seems Cummins did a bad job of machining the rods and they cause the piston pins to freeze then send the whole mess out the side of the block causing in their words, "engine failure without warning, possibly resulting in a vehicle crash." I immediately called Cummins and was told they, "Don't expect many failures." That made me feel a lot better. I also asked what would happen if one were stuck out in the boonies with a failure, who was going to pick up the tab for a damaged coach, hotel rooms, meals and other expenses? The answer, "Not Cummins, warranty doesn't cover those expenses."
I told the Cummins representative that it sounds like their legal and accounting departments have decided the 3-4% estimated failure rate is an acceptable risk and they would take that gamble. Unfortunately if you're one of the 2159 that has a "vehicle crash" and are injured or killed you happen to be in your own 100% group. How soon manufactures forget the Ford Explorer and Firestone fiasco. This is a new problem and affects about 58 Alpine Coaches, more information can be found scattered around the web and one law firm in Ohio is already is already gearing-up for the legal battle. I have called Burk Morgan at WRV requesting guidance and support on this issue, but so far have not received a response.

Dick and Susan Bunting
San Diego, CA
36' 2006
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Old 07-27-2007, 04:31 PM   #2
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On July 23 we received a recall notice from Cummins stating they have found a problem with their ISL CM850 engines manufactured between October 2005 and April 2006. Yes, we are included. That's the bad news. But wait, there's more, Cummins says they will put a crankcase pressure sensor on the engine and a red warning light on the dash to warn you that in eight minutes the engine will self-destruct. Seems Cummins did a bad job of machining the rods and they cause the piston pins to freeze then send the whole mess out the side of the block causing in their words, "engine failure without warning, possibly resulting in a vehicle crash." I immediately called Cummins and was told they, "Don't expect many failures." That made me feel a lot better. I also asked what would happen if one were stuck out in the boonies with a failure, who was going to pick up the tab for a damaged coach, hotel rooms, meals and other expenses? The answer, "Not Cummins, warranty doesn't cover those expenses."
I told the Cummins representative that it sounds like their legal and accounting departments have decided the 3-4% estimated failure rate is an acceptable risk and they would take that gamble. Unfortunately if you're one of the 2159 that has a "vehicle crash" and are injured or killed you happen to be in your own 100% group. How soon manufactures forget the Ford Explorer and Firestone fiasco. This is a new problem and affects about 58 Alpine Coaches, more information can be found scattered around the web and one law firm in Ohio is already is already gearing-up for the legal battle. I have called Burk Morgan at WRV requesting guidance and support on this issue, but so far have not received a response.

Dick and Susan Bunting
San Diego, CA
36' 2006
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Old 07-27-2007, 07:26 PM   #3
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Dick, can you add a link to the recall notice? I went to the Cummins web site and I do not see anything on it.
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Old 07-27-2007, 08:39 PM   #4
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Greetings from Bend,OR,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Dick, can you add a link to the recall notice? I went to the Cummins web site and I do not see anything on it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

See previous posting for more information:
http://irv2.infopop.cc:80/eve/forums...2/m/9641027393

Real problem? Who knows. My engine may be affected but I have not received any notice from Cummins.Fingers & toes crossed.
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Old 07-28-2007, 03:06 AM   #5
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GM had issues like this when they produced a warmed-over 350 Cu. in. spark ignition engine in Diesel form. After a number of failures with the Stanadyne fuel injector system and catastrophic destruction of the blocks, a "Class-Action" suit was instituted. For which GM paid dearly.

I don't believe Cummins' disclaimer will stand up when challenged by a knowledgable Attorney working on contingency.

Something else to think about.
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Old 07-28-2007, 04:56 AM   #6
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Tom Polk also talked to Cummins:
"I talked to a Cummins rep at the Good Sam Rally last week. I told him I had 16,000 miles on my 06 Apex. He said the problem occurs in the first few thousand miles and I did not have to worry about it."

Good topic at Newport rally gearhead session.
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Old 07-28-2007, 06:24 AM   #7
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"I talked to a Cummins rep at the Good Sam Rally last week. I told him I had 16,000 miles on my 06 Apex. He said the problem occurs in the first few thousand miles and I did not have to worry about it." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's small consolation if your engine falls within the affected range.

However, there have been no posts for quite some time on engines failing, which is a good sign.

I'm disappointed in Cummins with their handling of this issue.

This is what the burnt wrist pin and damaged piston looks like before the engine fails.
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Old 07-28-2007, 01:43 PM   #8
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DrDaveCA:
Dick, can you add a link to the recall notice? I went to the Cummins web site and I do not see anything on it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Dave and Bobbi,

I got a lot of my information from:
http://www.rv.net/forums/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/ti...rt/pa/pging/1/page/1

There are about 12 pages so far and I'm sure there will be more.

Here's the NHTSA Summary:

May 18,2007
Associate Administrator for Enforcement
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
400 Seventh Street, S.W.
Washington, D.C. 20590

Dear Sir or Madam:
The following information is submitted in accordance with the National Highway
Traffic Safety Administration's reporting regulations, 49 CFR Part 5 73.6.
Cummins Inc. (Cummins) has decided that there is a potential safety-related defect with
respect to connecting rods in ISL CM850 diesel engines manufactured by Cummins and
installed as original equipment in those motor vehicles identified below.
1. Product identification and customer channels.
This defect involves Cummins ISL CMS5O diesel engines produced for recreational
vehicle applications between October 17,2005 and April 18, 2006. There are 2 159
engines in the subject population that we intend to campaign.
All ISL CM850 engines in the subject population are covered by this recall. The ISL
CM850 recreational vehicle ESNs eligible for this campaign range from 46543077 to
46603939. A complete listing of the subject populations by vehicle manufacturer is
attached in Appendix A.
2. Identification of the item: Connecting Rod
Engine Make: Cummins
Model: ISL CM850
Part Number: 3971 393
Function: Transmit energy from the piston to the crankshaft
3. Estimated extent of defect population.
Cummins estimates that approximately 3 3% of the subject population of engines could
experience a connecting rod failure. Cummins will pursue a 100% recall on all engines
in the subject population.
Cummins notes that the Company has voluntarily decided to conduct this recall.
Cummins Inc.
500 Jackson Street
Columbl~sI,N 47201 LISA
Phone 18123775000
cummins.com
07E-033
(4 pages)
4. Description of defect.
The connecting rod contains a machining defect in the wrist pin bushing of the rod that
could cause a seizure of the piston pin, which if allowed to progress, can lead to engine
failure with the possibility of the rod rupturing the block cavity, oil and debris on the
roadway and vehicle crash.
5. Chronology of events.
Over the later months of 2006, Cummins received reports of ISL CM850 engine failures
of recreational vehicles in the field. The failures were occurring on ISL CM850 engines
built after October 1 7, 2005.
In response to these reports, Cummins Service Engineering and Cummins Product
Engineering investigated the failures and coordinated problem solving activities. On
May 11, 2007, these activities led to a management decision to conduct a safety
campaign on ISL CM850 recreational vehicle engines built between October 17,2005
and April 18,2006.
To date, Cummins is not aware of any injuries, fatalities, or crashes that were the result
of this defect. It is estimated that approximately 3.8% of the subject population could
experience an engine failure.
6. Remedy program.
Cummins will recalibrate the engine control module. Additionally, Cummins will
enhance the Engine Protection System enabling it to provide early detection of the
failure mode and avoid more serious engine damage and resultant safety hazard. This
will involve installation of a new valve cover with a crankcase pressure sensor. Prior to
failure, the new crankcase pressure sensor will provide a signal to the dash with a red
light. A red lamp gives an indication to the driver to stop the engine as soon as it can
safely be done The campaign will be completed without charge to engine owners.
Cummins notes and emphasizes that all covered vehicles involved in the campaign were
sold with a 5- year or 100,000 mile warranty and are estimated to have extensive
warranty coverage remaining on these engines to cover future repairs as needed.
7. Part 577 notice letter.
The customer notice letter is in the process of being prepared and will be submitted in
draft to the agency as soon as possible.
8. Conduct of recall campaign.
Subject to concurrence of its OEM customers, Cummins will be conducting the
respective recalls with the customers of each OEM.
9. Customer/owner notifications.
Notifications are expected to begin in July 2007, once Cummins is in receipt of the
OEM recall authorizations and customer lists.
Please advise the undersigned of the recall campaign number assigned by the Office of
Defects Investigation to this recall. Cummins campaign code for this recall will be
C0713.

Sincerely yours,
Steven R. Butler
Director - Product Safety
Phone: 812-377-3713
Fax: 8 12-377-3265
E-mail : steven.r. butler@cummins.com

Appendix A
OEM No. of Engines
Country Coach 94
Foretravel 9
Freightliner Custom Chassis 666
Monaco 818
Spartan 499
Western RV 58
Cummins Distributors 15

Here is an explanation from Cummins regarding how they will handle "Emergency Vehicles". Of course they don't consider the fact that when an R.V. engine self-destructs in all probability it will create its own "emergency."

Summary: C0713 ISL CM850 Recall

Solution:

The recall of engines in emergency vehicles (fire trucks and ambulances) was related to the critical vehicle mission and the consequences of such a vehicle not being able to complete it's mission.

In an application less critical than emergency vehicles Cummins is modifying the engine protection system to make it sensative to slight changes in crankcase pressure. Such pressure changes precede the type of failure related to the recall by several minutes and provide sufficient warning to prevent progressive engine damage.

Standard Cummins warranty of 5 years/100,000 miles will cover any failure during that interval. Any failure outside of warranty coverage would be reviewed on a case by case basis to see if Cummins should help with any repair. The type of failure related to this recall would more likely occur in hundreds of miles rather than thousands of miles.

Our extended assurance coverages are sold only during the first 6 months of an engine's life.

We thank you for your interest in Cummins products. We occasionally misunderstand a question. If our answer to your communication looks like we have misunderstood your e-mail please reply with further inquiry

Customer Assistance Center
Cummins, Inc.
Columbus, Indiana, USA
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Old 07-28-2007, 01:48 PM   #9
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Basil Shannon:
Tom Polk also talked to Cummins:
"I talked to a Cummins rep at the Good Sam Rally last week. I told him I had 16,000 miles on my 06 Apex. He said the problem occurs in the first few thousand miles and I did not have to worry about it."

Good topic at Newport rally gearhead session. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Basil & Sue,
Apparently it depends on which Cummins representative one talks with as to their estimate of when the failure might occur. When I talked with Cummins on July 23, the fellow said failure was likely in the first several hundred miles. I like that much better seeing as we have only about 3500 on the unit.

Dick Bunting
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Old 07-29-2007, 07:11 AM   #10
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I blew my engine with 2160 miles on it and coach was 9 days old. Spent month in San Angelo Tx. until new motor arrived. Towed from I-50 (50 miles) by Coach Net (Spartan Warranty) New motor is also on the recall, but have 28,000 miles on it and runs good. Invoice total was $28,000 bucks which was sent to Cummins.
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