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Old 12-06-2007, 10:31 AM   #1
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Some folks use diesel additives. Here is a Lubricity Additive Analysis that might be of interest.

Performance Formula additive by Stanadyne has some impressive data on its detergent action (eliminating build up of deposits in the injection pump for instance) and some independent analysis that indicated it more or less paid for itself in mileage gain when diesel was $2/gallon. I was surprised to see it has no substantial lubricity effect, although it was developed (as were many of these additives) when lubricity of diesel was better from the refiner.

I was surprised they did not analyze transmission fluid as an additive, as that is or at least was common practice with fleet managers. And the 2% new soy diesel blend is impressive for those who have it available. For anyone w/a 2007 emissions package, these results are irrespective of emissions effects and any effect on the particulate filter servicing interval.
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Old 12-06-2007, 10:31 AM   #2
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Some folks use diesel additives. Here is a Lubricity Additive Analysis that might be of interest.

Performance Formula additive by Stanadyne has some impressive data on its detergent action (eliminating build up of deposits in the injection pump for instance) and some independent analysis that indicated it more or less paid for itself in mileage gain when diesel was $2/gallon. I was surprised to see it has no substantial lubricity effect, although it was developed (as were many of these additives) when lubricity of diesel was better from the refiner.

I was surprised they did not analyze transmission fluid as an additive, as that is or at least was common practice with fleet managers. And the 2% new soy diesel blend is impressive for those who have it available. For anyone w/a 2007 emissions package, these results are irrespective of emissions effects and any effect on the particulate filter servicing interval.
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Old 12-07-2007, 06:53 AM   #3
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Thanks, EMike!

We have the older engine, so have been a bit concerned about the loss of lubricity and its effect on our engine. I'm out of town right now for the birth of our first great-grandchild so can't show this to John, but will give it to him to read when I get back home. Hoping that it will help us determine the best approach for our engine.

Of course, if anyone out there has had any experience with additives in the older engines, we would appreciate your input. I know there was a thread on this a while back, but perhaps there is more information now.

Thanks for any guidance!
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Old 12-07-2007, 12:19 PM   #4
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One thought- test conditions were with a given test specimen of ULSD fuel. Actual delivered fuel will likely vary. This is a question on the yahoo diesel pusher discussion group right now as to how additives by refiners may have altered the baseline from that shown in this test. Don't know if it is better or no different.
I'm assuming lubricity of ULSD will be an issue for Cummins, Cat, etc. and that it will receive appropriate attention, but that's an assumption.
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Old 12-07-2007, 04:04 PM   #5
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As usual, when something new happens or is forced upon us by "those that control" things, we, joe public, often to off into pseudo-hysteria trying to figure out what we can do. There are very lengthy discussions on the lubricity additive issue on several other sites and most "responders" use terms like "it adds very little cost per tank of fuel for the added insurance" (to save high repair bills to the injecters/pump). "The Diesel Place" even did a supposed independent study showing the best additives (Opti-lube performed best). It was an interesting paper but I still have to question the need for consumer lubricity additives. EMike is right...the engine manufactures need to provide direction. One item I found that leads me to believe that lubricity additives are not necessary is:

http://www.epa.gov/cleandiesel/maintenance.htm

If I understand it correctly it states required additives are already added by the supplier.
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Old 12-07-2007, 04:58 PM   #6
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An experience. In the mid 80's I had a ship that added an authorized fuel additive. First of all.. all fuels as discussed have additives. This additive was to keep the bacteria from growing in the fuel tanks. This was done thousands of times before. However, this time the fuel distributor's refinery added another manufacture additive, which was the same as before but contained some extra blends. (Lost the argument of they did it or our additive did it. Bottom line two different additives equaled jelly.) Well, we ended up with over 400,000 gallons of jelly. It took 6 weeks of crews working two shifts flushing and cleaning the hull tanks, disassembling fuel supply lines ,centrifuges, return F.O piping and flushing the engine racks then sending all 18 cylinder injectors out for rebuild. Because the Cummings engine use a pressure timed delivery system the amount of fuel is measured and sent to each injector. Once it sprays into the cylinder that's it. So. Really lubricating the injectors and fuel pump is done by the fuel as it comes from the mfr. Even the Detroit diesels which use the fuel for cooling and lubricating the small check valve in the nozzle point of the injector get along fine without those issues.
So... guess you can tell I don't add additives to my fuel. PS. Now gasoline is different.
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Old 12-07-2007, 07:07 PM   #7
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As I understand it, diesel fuel in North America must meet a lubicity standard (ASTM D975) of 520mm even though EMA (Engine Manufacturers Association) recommended 460mm in order to be consistent w/fuel injecion equipment mfg'ers.

Also, EMA recommended raising the Cetane Number (CN) to 43 for ULSD (ASTM D613) from the ASTM D975 of 40 CN of Aug 2005.
Cetane number is actually a measure of a fuel's ignition delay; the time period between the start of injection and start of combustion (ignition) of the fuel.
Generally, diesel engines run well with a CN (Cetane Number) from 40 to 55. Fuels with higher cetane number which have shorter ignition delays provide more time for the fuel combustion process to be completed. Hence, higher speed diesels operate more effectively with higher cetane number fuels. There is no performance or emission advantage when the CN is raised past approximately 55; after this point, the fuel's performance hits a plateau. In North America, diesel at the pump can be found in two CN ranges: 40-46 for regular diesel, and 45-50 for premium. Premium diesel may have additives to improve CN and lubicity, detertgents to clean the fuel injectors and minimize carbon deposits, water dispersants, and other additives depending on geographical and seasonal needs.
In Europe, diesel cetane numbers were set at a minimum of 49 in 1994 and 51 in 2000

Does anyone have info as to what to expect in the way of CN & HFRR typically dispensed from a truck stop (Flying J, Pilot, etc)?
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Old 12-08-2007, 03:22 AM   #8
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Cummins does not recommend the use of any additive.

They continue to warranty their engines that use ULSD, and obviously do not see a problem with lubricity.

I agree with Cummins that additives are not necessary.
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Old 12-08-2007, 06:10 AM   #9
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E. Mike, 1st, is 08 checking out as well as you expected. From what I have read you appear to quite pleased.
Subject: additives to diesel fuel. I have alway added a little bit of someone's additive to reduce mold, algae, etc. From the opinion I get including our own representative Arlen Spector this appears to be unneccassary or possible detrimental. Your opinion seems to follow that same thought. I have read some of Cummins comments and they agree that it is unneccassary if not harmful. If in my position would you avoid using any additive to the diesel fuels even over a 2-3 month layup in the winter months. (winter months to us)??
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Old 12-08-2007, 08:28 AM   #10
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My perspective isn't highly cooked. I know something about the Stanadyne PF additive cuz of a study done by hobbyists (DieselPage.com buddies, similar to the DieselPlace.com) I hung around when I had the same engine in our Trek. That GM engine had a Stanadyne injection pump, the early designs of which had lots of failures (including mine). The PF additive was popular due to the detergent effects demonstrated by Standyne's own data but also combined w/hobbyist experience it extended mileage by an amount that nearly paid for the high price of the stuff.

Once I got a water in fuel warning after filling at a Flying J in Gorman. It had just snowed & the runoff was all over the place. I pulled over & emptied a jug of additive in the fuel, and w/in 10 miles the light went off never to return. Don't remember the brand of additive, but it was advertised with dispersant properties.

Just my guess, but Cummins & Cat have to design engines to run on available fuels or they are outa business. IIWT, I'd be considering stuff like which additive(s) are likely to be available and whether idiot customers are going to over-add ("If a little's good...). Additives, if recommended, complicate their service, so their position is understandable. However, just as chemistry of fuel can be varied from great to lousy, seems to me that additives have the same possible range of effects.

Where fuel gelling is troublesome (frigid climes), there is a "winter blend" of #2 diesel offered to minimize gelling, but additives also handle the chore and have been used for a long time. Ditto w/algae preventatives, tho my understanding is that is more of a warm, humid climate problem, and most serious where fuel sits for long periods (its way more prevalent on boats).

I never used additive w/the 06, and am more leary of monkeying w/fuel for the 08 w/its goofy cataclysmic converter (additives gotta burn up & who knows what results). My areas of travel in the States avoid gelling and algae. Never had trouble w/fuel in Mexico (I'll find more out about that in a coupla days as we are leaving this afternoon for latitude 26). So it'll be a while before I test any additive. I posted the above for those w/non-ULSD-only rigs who may be interested.

Otherwise the 08 is going great. After the initial punchlist, I have only (so far):
1) ice-thru-the-door gets stuck on crushed ice production regardless of whether its set on crushed or cubes,
2) ceiling light in one smartbed no workee,
3) rear DS smartbed collides w/the kitchen slide ram cover (I actually got tech service on first call and not their voice mail, but they insisted I needed kitchen slide adjusted upward even tho the collision is on a vertical edge; more to it than that I'm afraid).
4) hydraulic bypass recall which I had done in Reno (my rig was the last of 15 that needed it, so any new rigs get this built in).
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Old 12-08-2007, 11:32 AM   #11
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">rear DS smartbed collides w/the kitchen slide ram cover </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mike, we had this problem as did a number of early Apex coaches. The fix was to replace the rear slide ram cover with one not as long.
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Old 12-09-2007, 08:18 AM   #12
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Mike
Be careful about adj. slide!They adjusted it up then the slide topper got caught and torn and cracked my kitchen tile.WRV tried but compartments still hit ram cover.I fixed it my self and it is not a hard job.With slide out drill rivits out that hold cover on.Center cover for and aft and dril new holes.I put screws back in instesd of rivits.Be careful tho I think the slide moves for and aft.
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Old 12-09-2007, 08:30 AM   #13
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Mike,
I also for got about the compartment lites.The bulbs might be to big and burn the ceiling and or melt the fixture.I replaced mine with ones like the ones in the bedroom closet with a switch on them or you can put a switch on the door like the one on the main entrance door.
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Old 12-09-2007, 02:07 PM   #14
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I inserted some information that Cummins sent someone from another web site regarding lubricity additives. Note that Cummins says that appropriate additives are included prior to being pumped into the vehicles.


----- Original Message ----- From: Powermaster@ cummins.com
&lt;mailto:Powermaster@ cummins.com&gt; To: Denny Filter Sent: Friday, July
13, 2007 1:37 PM Subject: Re: RQST00000495972
Summary: ULSD

Solution:
Thanks for your Email message. You have contacted Cummins, Inc. at our
Customer Assistance Center located in Columbus, Indiana. This is our
worldwide headquarters and has been our home since Clessie Cummins
founded the company February 3, 1919.

There are many rumors circulating about the effects of sulfur being in
diesel fuel or sulfur being taken out of diesel fuel. Diesel fuel
without sulfur is just as good, in all respects except one, when
compared with today's fuels with sulfur.

The only negative effect of taking sulfur out of fuel is that the fuel
becomes more expensive, somewhat negating the inherent cost advantage
of running diesel engines when compared to other fuels. It has to be
removed using specialized equipment and chemical processes that add to
the expense of producing the fuel.

We have seen a very few instances where the reduced aromatic content of the fuel has resulted in slight leaks from fuel systems. This is not expected to be an issue with many engines.

Diesel fuel, in the United States, now must meet a lubricity standard. The producers adjust the lubricity before they distribute the fuel. No further additives are needed to ensure proper fuel system lubrication.

Basically the change to new fuel should be pretty easy for folks with
the engines built prior to 2007 and for customers with the engines
built in 2007 it will be necessary, for the time it takes fuel stations
to consume the remainder of the old fuel, to be certain they are not
fueling with the older fuel.

There is an effect on diesel engines from the use of ultralow sulfur
fuel which we expect to be positive. The blowby gasses that normally
pass through the engine crankcase will contain much less of the
chemically reactive sulfur and its compounds. This will tend to keep
the engine oil cleaner during operation and allow important engine
components like bushings, bearings and piston rings to live longer.

Diesel fuels containing sulfur or no sulfur each have the same specific
heat, about 20,000 BTUs per pound. For that reason they give the same
amounts of work for the same amount of fuel. That means the fuel
economy per gallon will not be affected.

Over the years we have seen fuel economy decrease, somewhat, as diesel
engine designs have been modified to meet the lower NOX limits imposed
by government. This has been totally unrelated to sulfur in the fuel.

With lower sulfur fuels it is possible that some exhaust after
treatment devices (catalytic converters) may be used to better effect,
making it possible to further decrease harmful exhaust emissions.

If you use diesel fuel that does not meet the new federal low sulfur
requirements that are going into effect for 2007, in a 2007 vehicle
that requires the new fuel, it will produce particulate matter that
will cause rapid plugging of the exhaust particulate trap.

We thank you for your interest in Cummins products. We occasionally
misunderstand a question. If our answer to your communication looks
like we have misunderstood your e-mail please reply with further
inquiry.

To locate the nearest Cummins-authorized Dealer or Distributor Service
Provider use option #2 on our toll free customer assistance line
1-800-DIESELS (343-7357) or for computer assistance in locating a
Service Provider, use Cummins Service Locator, which can be found on
Cummins website:

http://wsl.cummins. com/ServiceLocat or/jsp/controlle r.jsp?action= showworl\
dmap
&lt;http://wsl.cummins. com/ServiceLocat or/jsp/controlle r.jsp?action= showwor\
ldmap&gt;

Please let us know if you have other questions and if away from your
computer or have a time-critical request that needs more urgent
attention, feel free to call us toll-free (from North America) at
option #4 on 1-800-DIESELS (343-7357).
Cummins Email (via webpage):

http://www.cummins. com/cmi/content. jsp?siteId= 1&langId= 1033&menuId= 6&ove\
rviewId=33&menuInde x=7
&lt;http://www.cummins. com/cmi/content. jsp?siteId= 1&langId= 1033&menuId= 6&ov\
erviewId=33& menuIndex= 7&gt;

Customer Assistance Center
Cummins, Inc.
Columbus, Indiana, USA
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