Eliminate Smart Bed Hydraulics?

[EngineerMike]

Steve- let us know here how you do. An aftermarket alternative would be very helpful. I have plugs if you need them. Handy for working on the valves w/out spilling a whole bunch of hydro-fluid. On mine, one set (can't remember whether its extend or retract) pour fluid out once the valve is removed, the other is a dribbler, but either you'd want to seal up if the valve is out for any measurable length of time (don't need air in system as a min.). In fact, a plug might be useful to you for matching threads, valve geometry, etc.
Look forward to your findings.

[saduncan1]

Mike, Kraig sent me a message said he had a bad valve, But if I knew the size of the plugs I might pick up a couple and pull my valve and take it down and try to match it up. I would guess its a machined thread with a o-ring groove. If you can give me that info that would work. Thread pitch size etc. sae or metric. I would rather use a dead Valve!! I sent Kraig an email and Ill try to arrange the valve!!

[EngineerMike]

My machinist said the HWH valves have a proprietary thread, I tried matching it against a Powergear valve and it was slightly different. Enough different that it wouldn't be a good fit in an aluminum block.

They have a multiple o-ring set consisting of 3 rings sealing valve to manifold, square ring - o-ring - square ring (if you snipped one of each w/scissors & looked at the cut end it has a square cross section instead of round like an ordinary o-ring). Then the nose seals into the inside pressure gallery of the manifold by a two or 3 ring set, either square-o or square-o-square depending on age of valve, they switched to 3 at some point and I don't know when. The plugs I had made follow the entire nose piece form w/complete o-ring sets. When I tried my first design that only seated against the manifold, I found that the manifold uses the nose o-ring sets to seal off an inside pressure gallery from an outer (but still interior to the manifold) gallery, and I couldn't operate any of the HWH items on my rig w/the plug in, so I had the nose pieces added and now the plug makes for a temporary running option if one valve is out for repair.

[Rusty Bear]

As a quick note on the original post, I have been thinking of putting a momentary remote switch on the smart beds on the passenger side. Has anyone attempted this fix?

[EngineerMike]

Jim- here is a thread that discusses wireless remote for SmartBeds, don't know if anybody has done the full homework. Mine is in the Projects To Get To box, and has been for quite a while. If anybody pulls the trigger on this, please start a new thread & provide details & photos.

I think (famous last words) on the Apex that your rocker switches are on the "safe" side of the SilverLeaf, i.e. on the high amp side of relays operated by SL. But IIWMI'd field verify that prior to lighting up such an upgrade, so as not to burn out any SL componentry. WRV made some concession in their SmartBed design so as to allow SBs to work regardless of whether the HWH motherboard was operational, so I've been told. I've never unplugged my MBoard to see if the rocker switches still work the beds, so can't verify that, but if true it would be logical (ho, ho, ho, hee, hee, hee) that WRV would have worked in the same logical separation of SL vs rocker switches. So the rocker switch circuit would be the logical (yeah, I know- ho, ho, ho, hee, hee, hee) place to tap for piggy-backing the remote relay taps. That was my plan when I bought the remote.

[EngineerMike]

RobbyRay- I have a theory about SB (or room slide) creep. The solenoid valve for each extend or retract, whether for jacks or for room slides or SmartBeds, has the same valve end design (jack needle valve has a larger opening to push more fluid faster). Here is a photo of an old style jack solenoid valve, and other than using 3 o-rings on the nose piece to seal against the hose outlet in today's models, the valve end is essentially identical today:


Here is a close up of the needle inside the high pressure area intake hole:


And here is the business end of the needle valve, the outlet:


My theory is that a leak-back situation can occur over time in any valve. The needle appears to be stainless steel, it has a pencil point end that has to seal against softer raw aluminum. Leak-back can be caused by junk in the oil getting trapped in the outlet hole, causing a small gap between needle & aluminum seat. Leak-back could also be cause by a tiny amount of mushrooming of the softer aluminum inside the outlet hole. Leak-back could also be loosening of the thin stainless panel nut seen in the last photo. You can release that panel nut & clean the outlet hole, and re-seat the aluminum nose piece against the needle. I did this on one valve & cured a leak back, don't know what actually caused the leak, didn't see any debris & probably won't see a small amount of mushrooming; could also have been lousy original HWH assembly as the valve was fairly new. Anyway, its worth a try in lieu of ordering a new expensive valve from HWH as long as the coil is activating the valve under ordinary operation.

I put just a firm, snug pressure of the aluminum nose against the needle on reassembly, no big torque, and snug torque on the panel nut (these are hard metal against aluminum, so don't go crazy or you'll start stripping stuff).

[Basil Shannon]

Originally Posted by EngineerMike

Jim- here is a thread that discusses wireless remote for SmartBeds, don't know if anybody has done the full homework. Mine is in the Projects To Get To box, and has been for quite a while. If anybody pulls the trigger on this, please start a new thread & provide details & photos.

I think (famous last words) on the Apex that your rocker switches are on the "safe" side of the SilverLeaf, i.e. on the high amp side of relays operated by SL. But IIWMI'd field verify that prior to lighting up such an upgrade, so as not to burn out any SL componentry. WRV made some concession in their SmartBed design so as to allow SBs to work regardless of whether the HWH motherboard was operational, so I've been told. I've never unplugged my MBoard to see if the rocker switches still work the beds, so can't verify that, but if true it would be logical (ho, ho, ho, hee, hee, hee) that WRV would have worked in the same logical separation of SL vs rocker switches. So the rocker switch circuit would be the logical (yeah, I know- ho, ho, ho, hee, hee, hee) place to tap for piggy-backing the remote relay taps. That was my plan when I bought the remote.

On my 2006 Apex, the big rocker switches for the Smart-Beds are hard wired with individual fuses to the solenoid valves and are totally independant of the HWH mother board & Silverleaf. I assume the SE design concept is similar although I have never traced the wiring on that model as I have on my Apex.

Apex also controls the SBs from touch pads (or owner installed small rocker switches) on the sides of the coach hard wired to the solenoid valves thru 8 small relays, 4 in & 4 out. If one wanted to add a SB remote control to a SE coach, seems to me it could be done with relays driven by the remote control device.

A downside to a remote control is that it could advertantly open a SB into something when one of the grandkids is trying to work the TV with your SB remote. Just saying.

[EngineerMike]

Basil- Thanks for the confirmation on independent wiring.
Where are the 8 SmartBed relays located on the Apexes? And which SilverLeaf box do they operate from? Do you have a photo of those?

[Renipladlo]

One other thought is if you open the SB with a remote, you still are going into the SB for something, and will have to go outside to get that something anyway. I am out there so how hard is it to push a rocker switch to open the unit. I do leave the master switch off unless I am going to open them however.

[Rusty Bear]

My remote switches are mounted under my dinette slide in the HWH area behind the access door. Very inconvenient. Most other coaches have their switches on the inside of the entry door by the passenger seat and if mine were there I probably would not consider the remotes. I have talked to Mark from SL and as I understand him, he does not think that the smart beds are part of the SL system on the Apex as mine are hard wired rocker switches. My other alternative is to move the existing switches to the entry door area like many of you have already.

[Basil Shannon]

Originally Posted by EngineerMike

Basil- Thanks for the confirmation on independent wiring.
Where are the 8 SmartBed relays located on the Apexes? And which SilverLeaf box do they operate from? Do you have a photo of those?

The 8 relays (APEX only) are mounted on the forward wall of the hydraulic compartment on my coach. Their function is to activate the Smart-Bed solenoids (4 in/4 out) from the touchpads (or owner installed small rocker switches) on the exterior of the coach. They are HARDWIRED and are totally independant of HWH motherboard and Silverleaf.

A 15A fuse provides daisey chained power to the relay power input. The output applies 12V to open the solenoid valve and also turns on the pump. Press a button and the SB moves.

I have attached a marked up version of the HWH series 2000 wiring diagrams orginally put out for APEX design guidance to WRV. Sheets 9466 A & B show how the 8 relays are wired on my coach. SE owners: This is the only HWH wiring diagram I know of that includes SBs which HWH calles Joey Beds. The mark-up results from many hours spent troubleshooting wiring my coach and trying to figure out how the system worked. 100% accurate? Probably not but it's the best I could come up with. Use it accordingly.

E-Mike, I tried and failed to get this diagram into the library.

On the back wall of the hydraulic compartment, WRV provided individual 15A fuses for the big rocker switches controlling 4 SBs and 4 slides. This fuse block is APEX only to my knowledge. There must be fuse(s) in the SE for the same SB function.

On the APEX, WRV put all the wiring in front of all the mechanical parts so changing a valve or especially a pump requires moving or disconnecting wiring. Another story. The SE hydraulic compartment is far less complicated.

[saduncan1]

Kraig, and Mike I got the packages today. I will get busy and see if that hydraulic shop can match up these valves

[EngineerMike]

Basil- I sent the file off to Linda to put in the Library. Thanks, ACA

[Old Trucker]

Originally Posted by robbyray

SPARES: here's a thought (since it's now after 2 am, probably a dumb thought) --
-- Set up a Virtual Spare Parts inventory via ACA.
-- Anyone wanting to participate, just list your spares (in detail) so everyone knows whether it is a match (organized by category).
-- In an emergency (not roadable or marginal roadable and normal lead times will delay a trip, or keep one stranded), request someone's spare on the ACA list.
-- Provided the replacement part can still be purchased, and the spare's owner wants to do it, sell the spare part to requestor for the current replacement part cost + shipping cost to replenish owner's spare + shipping from owner to the requestor (i.e., no profit, just full cost recovery to the spare's owner)
-- Honor system to differentiate anything that might be used, e.g., I have a perfectly good Xantrex 2 KW inverter / charger that I had firmware upgraded and checked out by Xantrex dealer in Portland OR (ASE Supply / Josh / Shawn) because I upgraded to Xantrex 3 KW last October. Since Xantrex inverter / chargers are available lots of places, we could use another subset of ACA site to list used, but perfect working condition stuff for sale.
-- On another sub-set of the ACA web site, start a member's satisfied vendor's list, again by categories so it's easy to sort or find stuff (or google it). This would be single place to get the best, quality deal on anything. For example, I paid twice as much for windshield wiper blades as I should have and while it's now buried in the forum's archives, would be better if we just kept a running, current list of where, who, how much, and if someone finds a better vendor, the last one get's bumped but not lost. The vendor's list could even be sorted by location, e.g., who is the best in Oregon to buy and/or install a SMS DuoBrake and at what cost with or without a wireless driver panel RF light and audio signal to alert driver that all is functioning as planned, etc.; or, e.g., why get the Cummins/Fleetguard ~$9 hydraulic filter and not the NAPA/Wix ~$50 hydraulic filter? (cause 10 micron Cummins filter is adequate and should have less pressure drop than NAPA/Wix 3 micron filter, i.e., less back pressure, was specified by WRV, and is cheaper)

"Information is Power only if it is converted to Knowledge" said somebody.

ray

Hi Ray, We have a couple things in common, I also have an Alpine, my name is Don Robinson, probably no relation.

I read these threads about all these problems and I think maybe old is not so bad. a 99 36 SDS no adjustable brake pedal and no smart bed.... and none of these problems.

I absolutely love your idea about a webb site listing extra parts. Also where to go for satisfactory repairs. This would be wonderful. I do not have the hi tech knowledge to set up a sight, but I COULD CONTRIBUTE ON LOCATION OF PARTS AND SERVICE. who COULD SET UP THE SSITE???????