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Old 08-16-2009, 07:11 PM   #15
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Dick,

I agree with Mike about not being concerned about using the filter again, as long as there is no metal in the system. The gurgling in the PS could be air trapped in the PS portion of the system. I had more noise out of the PS after the change and it now seems to be back to normal.

I would also think that there might be some of the 32 left in the system. When mine was changed and "flushed" by Cummins, I noticed that the new oil was not clear, like pure Rando, meaning that there was some amount of engine oil in the system. When I returned home after that trip, I changed all of the oil in the tank and replaced the filters. It is after that when I noticed the bigger improvement in the brakes.

I am concerned about the Rando oil in my system. On the last trip home from California, the coach seemed to run hotter than on previous trips when the air temp was in the same 110+ range. This is after I fixed the hot air recirc problem. I will check the fan speed now and see if it is OK. If I have low fan speed now, I will change back to regular oil. I plan on changing the brake pedal linkage for better leverage anyway.

As I have stated before, WRV and Cummins were and are concerned about a lower viscosity oil in that system causing low fan speed. When I got the new coach and was unhappy with the brake pedal pressure I thought it might have something to do with the change from ATF to engine oil. I asked the head engineer why didn't they just change back to ATF like my '02 came with, as it required much less pressure to brake than the new coach. He told me that the system was designed for the engine oil and they were concerned about fan speed if they changed the oil that they were using. At a much later date, I mentioned to Mike Young that I was planning on changing to the Rando for the brake problem. He seemed to be unaware of WRV's change to that oil and had concerns about fan speed with a change from the original oil.
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Old 08-17-2009, 10:43 AM   #16
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Mike and Dale,

Thank you both for the suggestions, I have a feeling the switch to Rando from the Valvoline Blue might not have been such a great idea after all. I have never been impressed with the brake response; or should I say lack of brake response in the Alpine. I felt the braking system was marginal at best. The switch to Rando made no appreciable difference in the braking that I could tell; but there was a definite and noticeable increase in coolant temperatures. The increase was not substantial, but on a 74-80 degree day for two short pulls up only moderate grades the temp increased to 204 very rapidly. Usually I see the 204-207 on 90-100 degreed days on long grades. These temps are all on the Silverleaf that agrees with the analog gauge. Of course, who knows what I’m supposed to be seeing on temps now with the new steel and brass radiator from Mac’s in Portland? A whole new ballgame…

I think what I’m going to do is check for air in the power steering lines, get the pump output pressure checked, check fan speed and if all is good leave the Rando HDZ in for now and see how this thing works on the trip up to B.C. next month. That should give me a good chance to see how everything is working. I’m stopping at Carrier & Sons to have them install their steering box mod; then have a week scheduled at Guaranty for normal servicing. If the Rando doesn’t work out I’ll have Carrier or Guaranty dump the system and put the Valvoline back in. By the way, my Owner’s Manual, Service Interval checklist doesn’t specify the oil required for the hydraulic system, just Valvoline Premium Blue Motor Oil. I assume they are talking about the same as the engine 15-40. I don’t know where I got on the track of 10-40 in some of my postings, but from what I see now it does indeed look like 15-40 is the stuff to use if I go back to the engine oil. Oh well, it all seemed like a good idea at the time.

One more item, do either of you know if WRV sent new units out the door with Rando/Rykon in the hydraulic system? If they were doing so, it seems they must have taken into account the impact on hydraulic pump output and cooling fan speed. At least one would think so. But then, maybe I’m giving them more credit for decision making abilities than they deserve.
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:02 AM   #17
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Dick,

My '09 (ULSD) was delivered in January of '08 with Rycon 46 Premium. My temp runs 180-190 normal, and goes to 201 on hills, regardless of outdoor temps.

Regarding braking.....I got much improvement after bleeding all four corners, even though it didn't look like I had hardly any air in the lines.
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:15 AM   #18
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Dick,

I am sure that you will find the brakes will stop you just fine, you just have to put a lot of pressure on the pedal. Just a note about Terry's information, the '08's and later have a different radiator and hydraulic system than ours. I am quite sure that no "non smog" coaches were delivered with Rykon, my coach was one of the last of these coaches. I think that the radiator /cooler pack is much a improved design.
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Old 08-17-2009, 02:41 PM   #19
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Terry and Dale,

The Alpine is back at the shop. They are going to drain the Rando HD out and replace it with the HDZ, when they can find the stuff. They’ve got a fluid leak at the reservoir, another at the power steering unit, and just for good measure an air leak from the suspension bag/flex brake line replacement. They too think the noise in the power steering is probably air in the lines and if there is any problem with the fan speed believe it too might be air bubble related. In any case they do have a non-contact laser type RPM reading tool. They do not have a flow/pressure meter to check hydraulic pump output though. Do you know if there are any specifics on fan rpm vs. engine rpm? Do you suppose they are equal or is it regulated by a temperature sensor in the coolant system that generates a signal to give variable speed to the fan? Man, this is getting complicated.

One more thing, Mike if you're reading this, the reservoir was full the first time it was drained and the system was not making metal.
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Old 08-17-2009, 03:34 PM   #20
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Dick,

See #8 in this thread.
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Old 08-18-2009, 09:37 AM   #21
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Realize I am talking "apples and oranges" here but our 2003 uses a combination of a traditional engine thermostat and a manual "wax valve" in the radiator to control fan speed. Setting side-by-side with "SOBS", I have been surprised by how loud[moving more air?] most SOB fans sound compared to the Alpine. Yet our 2003 has never shown any overheat problems[195 on level and maybe 205 on grades [just made the run from Montrose to Durango, CO--three 11,000 ft passes(my wife still isnt talking to me but that's another story)].

While chasing a related dash A/C problem, the RV shop temporarily capped off the wax valve controller loop. The fan ran continuously and at what appeared to be a much faster RPM. However, this wasnt the answer as the engine never got above 150-160 degrees at idle. I've heard there are "shims" inside the fan motor that can be "adjusted" to increase/decrease fan RPMs--has anyone ever had these "shims" adjusted to change fan RPMs?

Final note--when I initally start the engine, the fan runs at a nominal speed. If I shut-off and then restart the engine, the fan will not restart until the engine/radiator have reached minimum operating temps--ie, 190-195.[even with a new/unneeded wax valve].
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Old 08-18-2009, 02:40 PM   #22
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Dale -
Oops, sorry 'bout that. Your information was so explicit and brief that I was obviously not computing, i.e., paying as much attention as I should have.

Old Scout -
That was great information of how your system operates. I wonder if WRV designed all the cooling systems in the same manner? As I understand it, a “wax valve” is a variably opening valve that receives input from a thermostat or similar electrical controller. Is that about right?

Based on that information is this generally correct about the Alpine cooling system? The engine driven hydraulic pump produces constant pressure, say 2500-3000 psi. Therefore the Hydromax and power steering always receive a constant pressure and flow from the pump. But, the cooling fan pressure is regulated through the fan controller, thermostat and “wax valve” to produce variable pressure, and thus variable cooling fan rpm.

Dale, referring to your thread #8, with the fan controller disconnected, the cooling fan rpm then matches existing engine rpm, correct? Therefore, with the fan controller connected the fan’s speed is then regulated to whatever rpm is required based on input from the thermostat. Do you suppose that the “fan controller” is just another fancy name for the “wax valve,” and when you disconnect the power the valve defaults to a “full open” position and this is what allows the fan to turn at the existing engine rpm?
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:06 PM   #23
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Dick,

The earlier coaches used the "wax valve," sometime, '05 '06?, they changed to a different controller. This was done because there were instances where the fan needed to be running for the dash AC, turbo intercooler, etc and the coolant was not hot enough to start fan.

I don't know, but am pretty sure that the pump pressure is not constant, as the check for fan speed was to be done at max engine RPM. Maybe Mike will pipe in here.
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:20 PM   #24
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The only thing I can add is the controller appears to be a Saur-Danfoss product, and that they are custom made for motorhome manufacturer's particular needs. Sounds stupid, as the only variables I can think of are side vs. rear radiator, radiator air volume req'mt (i.e. fan HP req'mt), and options (AC call for full rpms, etc.). That's probably an oversimplification by a knucklehead, but I have to work with what I've got. If you need a replacement controller, it has a part number on it, and a Saur-Danfoss dealer can order one which they make by the each to your order. That's what I was told by a SD dealer when trying to locate a supplier for the Tech Library, not something I've verified by doing.
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:31 PM   #25
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Dale is correct--sometime in 2004 or 05, WRV went to an electrical fan control system that takes into account dash A/C and turbo cooling needs, rather than just a mechanical reaction to radiator/coolant temps. The "wax valve" conversation doesnt apply to newer model coaches--my bad, but I was curious as to whether anyone had "successfully" adjusted the shims in the fan motor to increase fan speed. Have to assume any increase in fan speed also results in more strain on the hydraulic pump--a concern Mike Young at Cummins in Yakama had with older coaches.
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:25 AM   #26
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Not sure if this will be helpful or not, but those divining the problem(s) can let us know if these links help make headway.

Saur-Danfoss makes a potted programmable electronic Fan Drive Controller (FDC) and has the 40pp manual in pdf on their website. The FDC can be set up to control a controllable pump output, presumably modulating fan output by modulating hydraulic pump output. Or it can control "a proportional valve in the pump load sensing circuit," which I believe is how Alpines are handled.
The FDC reads up to 3 temp sensors, 2 auxiliary switch inputs (e.g. air conditioning call for full fan rate), 1 pulse-width-modulated ECM input (for GKW), and one PWM output (which may be readable thru the ECM w/proper software if you had any idea how to find it).
If sold as a controller/valve package, SD calls it an FDCAssembly or FDCA. The FDCA Manual is the one to read first IMO, as it explains the integrated operation of controller & valve actuation, which should be either exactly what WRV used or sufficiently similar (maybe a different valve-drive? but probably same logic) to allow intelligent diagnosis.
Hope this helps.
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:58 PM   #27
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Men when looking at cooling we need to think about what is going on.
Air temp
Thermostat
Fan speed
engine speed
AC on or off
When at 195-197 the thermostat well be all most closed fan at a slow speed with ac off this will change with ac on the fan will come on and off to cool the ac down if not a high head pressure will take the ac out and fast. When the eng. starts to pull the the thermostat will open up now the temp will go up 204-210 fan on, if the temp drops to 197 fan will go off or to slow speed. Now comes the hard part Air temp and eng. speed, when air temp gets to 100 all bets are off. Now the person driving need to take over and look at thing like do I have at tail wind or a head wind do eng. speeds need to come up so it will cool more. Do I need to turn off the ac so it will cool more do I need to go down a gear so I am not pulling so hard. I need to keep the temp down to 220. What to do ? think. If you don't the new eng. will cost $22,000.00 and I will be mad as hell and you will not have a job.(Ok a old tale from 25 years of trucking)
It looks like the alpines are ok if not you will know, and fast. the thermostat will do most if the work for you. So sit back and have fun don,t play with the toy to much.
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:51 PM   #28
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It would be hard to argue with a truck driver who worked around these engines for a living; but gosh, how we boys do like to play with our toys! Engine RPMs is a key component of keeping the 400 ISL cool--Mike Young told us during a "Gear-head" session that while the 400 will pull alot of grades in 6th gear, manually dropping down to 4th or 5th will keep the RPMs around 1800-2000 and provide max engine cooling.

With regard to the ACME dash A/C, 2003 and earlier models have two freon pressure sensors. The first is designed to come on at about 275 PSI then off at 150 PSI. Its purpose is to control an aux electric fan on the radiator which WRV didnt use so its not connected. The second sensor shuts off the A/C compressor as a last resort, at 300+ PSI????? There are alot of threads on this forum concerning dash A/Cs, and after-market fan controls--again, this is for 2003 and earlier coaches with mechanical "wax value" controls.
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