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Old 08-13-2009, 09:44 AM   #1
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Engine Over Heating

We are having over heating problems. In addition to the over heating, the brake failure light came on, the power steering reduced and the transmission over temp light came on. All of this while going up three different grades.

The coach is at Redlands Truck. They found metal shavings in the hydraulic fluid. The fluid smelled like it was burnt. The pump pressure was under 1,000 psi when dead headed. They are continuing to test, but feel the pump has gone bad.

Does anyone know what the pump dead head and operating pressure should be?

Has anyone else had this problem?
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Old 08-13-2009, 10:02 AM   #2
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Redlands can go to the RH Sheppard website & check the specs on the power steering. IIRC it requires 2500 psi & a given flow rate. Dale Gerstel had to replace a hydraulic pump recently, you might PM him for additional info, or maybe he'll chime in w/his experience.

W/metal in the system, I'd recommend full flush. The procedure is posted on the ACA Tech Library under Chassis.
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Old 08-13-2009, 11:38 AM   #3
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It was my fan motor that seemed to be the problem, made noises, but was turning fan fast enough. They found metal in the system and recommended replacing the pump as a safety measure. It does sound like a pump problem, low pressure would cause the fan to run slow, causing those problems.
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Old 08-13-2009, 11:55 AM   #4
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According tot he RH Sheppard M100 steering gear product page, you need 2350 psi & 3+gpm flow rate to feed the power steering. The Bosch Hydromax has a similar pressure req'mt (1000 min?) which comes out of the power steering overflow. When another owner had a pump problem, WRV lent a combo pressure/flow-rate meter combo to assess the problem. If pressure is down to 1000, you probably don't need to bother w/that.

That pump is rebuildable and can be sent out to have it overhauled. Don't know if rebuilders have a core-exchange program for faster turn-around.
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Old 08-14-2009, 11:59 AM   #5
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Mike/Dale,

Thanks for all the help.

It was the pump. The pump is a Sauer-Danfoss #C45.OL 3576 5160 160, which has been replaced with #5501 3576 5160 160. Sauer-Danfoss, has sold this pump line to Dynamatic (a company in India). The Dynamatic leadtime is 6 weeks.

However, the good news is Sauer-Danfoss has 26 pumps left over in stock. Having one sent via next day. Should be back on the road next Tuesday.
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Old 08-14-2009, 05:46 PM   #6
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Hello Dennis,

I just got my coach out of the shop a couple hours ago; radiator replacement (one of Mac's steel & brass units) and had the hydraulic fluid changed to the Rando 46. I was hoping for good things in both departments. Well, the braking if it has improved did so marginally; but the coolant temperatures are about 10 degrees hotter than before -- not good, I didn’t like them before either.

After reading about your and Dale Gerstel's problems with overheating I'm starting to wonder if maybe my hydraulic pump might be the culprit. The shop made no mention of finding any contaminants in the hydraulic reservoir, but neither did they say they observed anything strange in the hydraulic fan speed. What I noticed is there is a very pronounced growling sound accompanied with a fluid gurgling noise that seems to be transmitted through the steering wheel when turning. This is not the old grinding noise that is fairly common in Alpines due to the floor seal around the steering shaft being dirty and not lubricated; I stopped that noise a long time ago. When your pump was going through its failure mode did you notice any particular noise in the power steering?

The temperatures I ran on the way home from the shop while towing a Jeep Cherokee on a 78 degree day are quite a bit higher than with the old aluminum radiator. I was looking at 195 to 197 on the flats and going over a couple moderate grades it rapidly went to 204. Now, these grades are not like the Cajon Pass, Grapevine, or our I-8 over the mountains to Imperial; I’d hate to think what it would do on those.

Dale Gerstel, If you’re reading this, I also considered your situation with multiple radiator gaps. I furnished all your commentary and pictures to my shop so they would pay particular attention to keeping the radiators well sealed, so I really don’t think/hope this would be the problem. sdcyclist, here in San Diego, also has a 2006 36’ with the identical radiator, installed by the same shop and his temperatures are dramatically cooler than mine. On Monday the Alpine goes back to the shop and they are going to do an infrared gun temperature check. I’ll have them recheck the radiator gaps and then do a pressure check on the pump. After all that, I really don’t really have any more ideas.
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Old 08-15-2009, 01:01 PM   #7
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Dick- if the shop is well heeled they will have a non-contact RPM meter that uses infrared or laser (may have to stick a reader strip on one fan blade). Have them check revs on the fan blade @ idle- should be ~800-850 per WRV's tech support when I had overheating problem w/my 06. Then use high-idle feature thru SmartWheel or have shop use Cummins computer software to command ~1500 rpms and recheck fan speed, then disconnect fan controller which should default fan to high speed & recheck fan RPM. That should give you a good array of data on the fan response.

They should also run the engine thru RPM range to check the pump output pressure, which would surprise me if they didn't figure out themselves. But I was surprised once, so I mention that here.
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Old 08-15-2009, 03:32 PM   #8
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Dick,

Are you sure that they used the premium Rando, there is a difference in the spects.

Mike Young told me that with the fan controller disconnected, for max fan speed, the fan RPM should match the engine RPM. This was tested at Max engine RPM. I probably need mine re-tested now that I have the Rando oil in it. Low fan RPM was WRV's concern with lighter oil in the system to help the brake problem.
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Old 08-15-2009, 05:44 PM   #9
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Dale and Mike,

Tomorrow I'll recheck the label on the remaining bucket of Rando; I already stashed it away in the hangar this morning. I definitely did specify that I wanted Chevron Rando HDZ ISO 46. My invoice says only CHVRH465 ISO 46 (probably for Rando 46 in a five gallon container, doesn't mention premium). sdcyclist also has the Rando 46 in his and he's not complaining about coolant temps. I sure hope I don't have to back through another dump and purge back to Valvoline 10-40 to get the temperatures down. In any case I'll give the shop all of your and Mike's suggestions and procedures on checking the fan speed.

As I mentioned, I did notice the gurgling noise coming from the power steering unit prior to the switch to Rando, so I don't think the new "hydraulic" fluid is causing that noise. I'm thinking that the pump may be in the pre-failure mode and is just not turning out the speed and pressure.
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Old 08-15-2009, 09:15 PM   #10
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Dick,

When I bought some Rando oil the second time here in LV, they brought out the standard oil and not the premium. Luckily I noticed the error and had them get the right oil.

Here are the data sheets on each oil, I think that the standard oil is thinner at high temp, maybe Mike can tell us for sure.

MatWeb - The Online Materials Information Resource

MatWeb - The Online Materials Information Resource
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Old 08-16-2009, 03:27 PM   #11
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Dale,

Yup, they did indeed put the standard Rando HD in the system. I checked the Chevron container and it is Rando HD 46 and not Rando HDZ 46. I've been looking at the specs. and you're right there is a difference. I assume that when WRV made the switch from 10-40 Valvoline Blue they specified Rando HDZ 46, is that correct?

You won't believe what a pain I've been having with the shop trying to get the correct fluid. I originally gave them printed instructions with Rando HDZ in 18 point print, highlighted in yellow and all the purging information. Well, I looked at their invoice and saw that it was Rando HD 32. Oops, "We made a mistake," says the owner, "but no problem, we'll change it." They dumped the 32, removed the filters and drained them, then put them back in. I didn't particularly like that, but what the heck the the filters hadn't been in but a day with very little running. Now I see they used HD instead of HDZ; so tomorrow out comes the filters and another drain. I suppose they'll want to reinstall the same filters again. Now I really don't like that idea! They used the $59.00 NAPA GOLD (as in "Gold-plated"), so they probably aren't going to be real happy if I insist on replacing them. Any ideas about what happens in the hydraulic tank if the gaskets on the filters are compromised?

Also, any input on whether the HD stuff would have much impact on the fan speed, for my heating problems, or the gurgling in the power steering unit?

As they say, "The beat goes on..."
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Old 08-16-2009, 05:54 PM   #12
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IMO reusing the filters shouldn't be any big deal. However, I like the idea of all that flushing. You oughta have the cleanest flush anybody ever did by the time they get done.

I think WRV originally tried the Rykon oil because they had it on hand for filling the HWH systems, and it fit along the lines of a new fluid to try for alleviating hard braking.

The HDZ has slightly better specs at high temps, which especially for sandwich radiator models (pre-ULSD engines) would be an advantage. It starts w/slightly higher viscosity numbers at low temps.
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Old 08-16-2009, 06:12 PM   #13
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Mike -
Thanks for your most input on the filters; that ought to make Mark at R.V. Specialities a bit happier. Although he's not going to be to enthused about doing the flush and refill on the fluid. Oh well...

It's probably wishful thinking on my part that the fluid has anything to do with hydraulic pump, cooling fan speed, and the gurgling in the power steering; more than likely there's a pump change looming just over the horizon.
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Old 08-16-2009, 06:28 PM   #14
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The gurgling sounds to me like air in the system. If that's true, that would account for steering fuss, but it would probably have to mean system level was low before the flush. Any idea how much was recovered from the flush? (the first one)
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