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Old 02-16-2012, 07:40 PM   #1
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Fan Motor Speed, ISL425 08-09 models

All- spent some quality time w/my rig, & noted my fan speed seems high.

The 08-09 rigs have a different hydraulics setup than the earlier rigs that have the Sauer-Danfoss fan motor controller. Ours have a Sauer-Danfoss HIC (Hydraulic Integrated Circuit) aluminum block that receives both input lines from the hydraulic pump, power steering output & input lines (closed loop: HIC-> power steering-> brake boost-> HIC), a small diameter return to the tank over the DPF, plus out-to-fan-motor and in-from-fan-motor. On the HIC, upper end of forward facing side, is a two-wire solenoid gizmo which I'm guessing is a proportioning valve receiving PWM (pulse width modulated) signal from the ECU to dial fan speed.

I didn't do a tach reading on fan at idle yet but guessing 1500-2000 rpm (I'll throw the optical tach on it over the weekend, rain permitting, and nail that down), going to full fan when I pull the two wire Deutch connector off the solenoid valve going to maybe 3000. Which means I'm wasting a helluvalotta hydraulic horse power at idle. This also helps explain the way cooler than previous year's engine temps on these later rigs under ordinary running condition (lower temps on high end still remain lower than previous model years, but I'm wondering how much fan speed & h.p. is to blame).

Anybody else think their fan makes a lot of noise & runs pretty fast at idle w/AC off?
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Old 02-16-2012, 09:26 PM   #2
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My 05 is drawing alot of air through the radiator when the engine is cold. 170 is about what temp. is maintained when traveling at 60 mph on flat hwy. The transmission barely comes off the bottom peg. I changed the Thermostate but the old one was working as it should. I have a Sauer Danfoss on order an hope to get it while in Casa Grande. Mike Bronzini (Redlands) mentioned that they have been changing coaches back to the wax valve because of issues with the electronic control.
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Old 02-16-2012, 10:29 PM   #3
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Two- certainly sounds like the controller isn't doing what it should and you are defaulted to fan-high. You'll burn a lot of extra diesel that way (which is my concern as well, not to mention kicking up dust idling thru a dirt road campground and such). IIWM however, I wouldn't head back to the wax valve w/out an A/C override. Which is easy to add, I just helped a fellow from the Phoenix area diagnose his fan issue, and his A/C override was not contacting, so his fan didn't come on (I suspect his wax valve is bad, but the AC override gives him a failsafe on which to travel safely at what would otherwise be high engine temps). I'm looking into the kit requirements to add for folks who don't have that accessory.
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Old 02-17-2012, 12:59 PM   #4
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EM-- believe I sent you the specs from the "A/C override kit" I got from Spencer Fluid Hydraulics in Yakama [this was the solution WRV was advocating for wax valve equipped models, prior to transitioning to electronic fan controllers]. These A/C override kits are inserted between the wax valve and the fan motor [controller loop] and is tied to an extra/unused Acme freon pressure sensor on the bulkhead]. Accordingly, this "solution" will not interfer with engine cooling but does tend to activate early in the A/C demand cycle as the extra/unused sensor was designed to turn on an aux electric fan pack at about 250 PSI, and shuts off at about 175 PSI. There may be other "things" going on with my dash AC system but as a result of installing the "override kit", my hydraulic fan will cycle on/off to high speed at engine idle [ie rest stops or at stop lights [usually on warm days], but doesnt overide the wax valve/engine thermostat at highway speeds. [I know this as I installed an "idiot" light to monitor the override kit and now this idiot watches it all the time --go figure.]
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Old 02-18-2012, 01:03 PM   #5
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I do have the same engine as the 08-09. I may not be much help to your question about the fan noise, since I don't hear well. The whole engine sounds noisier than the pre DPF engines. I leave my Silverleaf showing the temp all the time. At idle it never goes below 176, going down the road runs between 185-191, pulling grades 201 is the max. Called Cummins tech support and they said max 225. The low and high temps are better than my ISC 330.
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Old 02-18-2012, 08:23 PM   #6
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In voluminous further research, 08-09 fan hydraulics run as follows:
- PTO runs two pumps, P1 & P2. One P is dedicated to fan, the other to steering/brakes.
- Both run thru the 5x5x5.5 aluminum HIC block referenced above.
- The fan circuit has a normally wide-open electric solenoid "proportioning valve" in line; solenoid is 200Hz Pulse Width Modulated 12Vdc, and closes the valve based on duty cycle of the PWM signal, amperage of signal varies from 0- ~1.5A.
- Steering/Brakes flow is out & back to the HIC, with a constant-flow valve inline in the HIC for either 4 or 5gpm (earlier units had 4 and had complaints about noise in the steering, so Berendsen changed the valve spec to 5 to eliminate the noise)
- there is a large out-to-cooler line from HIC to radiator, from which fluid flows back to reservoir
- there is a 1/4" overpressure bypass line back to reservoir

Kraig- if you have distinctive fan noise at idle, I suspect yours & mine are operating the same. On my 06 (w/the Sauer-Danfoss fan control module) the OEM idle speed on fan was about 800rpm; you can see individual fan blades whizzing by but they were too fast to count, and there was no appreciable fan noise above the motor noise. On the 08 there is a discernible roar of fan at idle and no way I can even see individual blades. I'm going to make a Deutsch (DT04-2P to DT06-2S ends) diagnostic pigtail tomorrow (serendipitously happen to have a spare fuel-in-water cable I inherited w/the same Deutsch ends) and probe the idle, A/C and at-temp voltages & duty cycles. I'm guessing there is not much modulation. Then maybe I'll apply 12V steady (100% duty cycle) & see whuzup w/fan speed (or maybe I'll chicken out, we'll see). Or maybe I'll get a 12Vdc PWM'er and power the solenoid independent of wherever it now gets signal and see if its working and the OEM PWM'ing isn't.
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Old 02-19-2012, 08:17 PM   #7
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Update- I spoke w/John Lam, who confirmed the solenoid on the HIC should be receiving PWM signal "direct from the ECU" (engine's computer, not the European Comminist Union). I also swapped an email w/the engine supplier in Yakima who said no, they only have an On/Off signal sent from the ECU.

Sooooo, I hooked up the Fluke 87V to my diagnostic pigtail to the solenoid valve harness on the HIC. Got 13.5V at idle, OL on the duty cycle (same as I get on continuous battery voltage). I'm thinking:
1) Cummins is right about the signal sent, and that indicates a whopping misunderstanding w/Berendsen on what is available to drive the HIC direct. And
2) the 08-09 rigs have two speed fan- high, and waythehell high. Or
3) I'm not running my tests correctly, And/Or
4) the valve isn't working the way it should (i.e. at full voltage, the trim to fan RPMs should be dramatic and it isn't, so could be faulty valve or sticky solenoid plunger). Either way, valve working or only working partially, still missing the PWM signal (unless I'm screwing up the measurements).

Time to order the PWM'er and run the solenoid independent of engine signals, and see what happens.
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Old 02-29-2012, 06:32 PM   #8
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I replaced my radiator fan control yesterday and engine temp is back to the 93c mark! And the fan doesn't spin at low temps. The part no. Is
1090385, Saur-Danfos. About $425 from NW dist.
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:04 PM   #9
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Ran some additional tests on fan control on the 08 DPF engine rig.

Fan speed control valve is only receiving an On/Off, 12v/0v signal. 12v means valve opens full as though 100%pwm and provides max bypass, 0v means closed therefore no bypass & max flow to fan/max fan speed. Two speed fan, no pulse width modulation. However, w/this valve, PWM wouldn't help. If I added that w/out a larger capacity valve, the fan would vary speed between high & stupid high (my current two speeds). So basically the fantastic cooling I attributed previously to the new radiator setup has to be at least partially due to the high or crazy-high fan speed under all conditions. I still have lower top temp than w/the 06 coach by maybe 20 degrees, so there is better cooling w/the new design. But i could sure save some money on diesel if I can figure a way to upgrade the valve & add PWM (actually even if I upgraded the valve & kept the same OEM 12v/NOv actuation.

Soooooo, need to talk to a hydraulics guy near me about upgrading the valve. I found one in Marysville, CA that not only carries this valve but also carries replacement valves as used in the 97-04 A/C override kits that kick fan to high speed with A/C on. Wish me luck. Be interesting to see what kind of fuel I've been wasting.
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:49 AM   #10
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For anybody interested, I figured out a way to add an electric fan to the radiator stack for the a/c condenser. Electric fan is independent of the hydraulic engine fan and comes on when the a/c is activated. HUGE improvement in the dash a/c efficiency and no need to fool around with the controls for the engine fan. What prompted this was 2 failures of the dash a/c system in a 2 month period last summer and not being satisfied with the solution executed by my local diesel shop of simply shutting off the fan bypass flow from the wax valve.
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:05 PM   #11
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Mike,

I'll be anxious to see what you find. The fan really gets noisy when it kicks to high speed at around 201 degrees...but boy does it bring down the temp in a hurry. It does seem to run a little fast at idle. I would love to get MPG up over 10, even though this coach already gets better mileage than I got with my 06.
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