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Old 12-19-2013, 02:52 PM   #15
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Page 3 of the Troubleshooting doc Algoma referenced has instructions for a 5-pin connector & 18 pin connector on a "Marine Data Center" appliance, that may resemble functions in the VDC used in Alpines.

FWIW- I checked out the 2005 (actia gauge) wire loom drawing set I've got. Fuel sender gets two wires, one white marked "1637" and one black marked "1435J". (The pre-04 rig chassis schematics show a "1637 WHT FUEL SEND" wire from the cab/bulkhead connectors to the back of the "Message Center" which is the idiot lights, so nomenclature appears to be the same for all rigs.) For 05+ 1637 runs direct to the main Actia speedometer plug, position #1, top left looking into the plug. The black 1435J wire splices to a number of other black (ground) wires & goes to the main chassis 3/8" ground stud on forward side of firewall. Gotta be a jumper from MsgCntr to Gauges.

Of note here is that 1637 white enters the cab thru the small (upper) aircraft connector in position 7. To find position 7, look into the uncoupled plug face on the bulkhead, envision "rows" of contacts, w/top row having 2 pins, 2nd row having 3, 3rd row having 4 pins. #7 is second from right in 3rd row from top. You should find wire marked 1637, tho the position may vary. Once found, you should be able to check continuity at that pin to your message center plug (read wire labeling at plug), bulkhead to sender, but you'll have to fish out the route from MessageCntr to gauge, & you could use a pin-prick to read voltage & Ohms-to-ground on 1637 wire in real time with everything connected. Can do that on either side of the firewall, whichever is more convenient and at the dash.

From OP's post#12, Dan is applying voltage from his multi-meter to invoke the ohms from the sender. I'm guessing the 04 gauge sends volts out on the white wire & reads ohms between white 1637 (or 04 equal) & black internally to the gauge, but that's a guess. The 05+ gauge reads the "analog input" and if senses a short or open circuit will wag the gauge pointer full scale. Could also be the MsgCntr sends out a reference voltage on 1637 & reads the amps drawn, say 5V reference = 0.14A to 0.02A full scale.

Report results so we can note them for posterity.
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Old 12-19-2013, 05:40 PM   #16
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More research findings just for fun:
1) WRV used black wire designated "1435" for chassis ground all years
2) WRV used white wire "1637" for fuel sender all years
3) early year (2000-ish & earlier for sure, but don't know how far forward from that this applies, might be thru 04) coaches have 5 pin gauges pinned: with 4 operative wires: PNL (gauge light command which will be either 12V if analog backlight or a PWM signal running LEDs depending on gauge), GAUGE (gauge data info to be displayed and this wire is common, i.e. spliced, to all gauges including fuel so all gauges get this data & strip out what they need to display, fuel gauge is not reading ohms- that is done at the 1637 input to the MsgCntr then info goes out on the GAUGE wire (u can plug any connector into any gauge and it should work assuming that the information is coming across that data line.), this wire will read 3-7Vdc to ground depending on signal), 1435 (ground), & 7V (7 volts driving gauge, not 12v). The 5th pin is blank.
The WRV schematic I'm reading is Feb 1999, & labeled Harness: Instrument Cluster-Kysor.

Google search on Kysor yields "Kysor-Medallion" which today is Medallion, and the PDF doc below. This PDF is for emergency vehicle applications, so some translations are required for a diesel bus. Data bus will be J1708, J1939, etc. as applicable; the VDC shows programmed for fire pumper features; fuel sender ohms show 0=full, 88=empty vs 35-240 for coach senders, etc. But I'm hoping the diagnostics are good for our application.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Kysor-Medallion Gauge Troubleshooting y2000.pdf (438.3 KB, 40 views)
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Old 12-19-2013, 06:04 PM   #17
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Mike, items 1 and 2 may apply to '98 coaches (haven't checked yet) but 3 definitely doesn't. I expect the change happened sometime in '99 when the ISC engine was introduced.
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Old 12-20-2013, 01:05 AM   #18
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I stand corrected as to the pre-2000, that was a conclusion I jumped to prematurely.

I've been plowing thru wiring schematics for Alpines as produced by WRV in conjunction w/Leoni Wiring Systems producing the looms. Leoni was kind enough to release those to ACA. I've been dreading breaking into the massive stack, of which many are useless, but this thread was a good excuse to find some that are not. Leoni may only have been brought in circa 1999 some time, and it might have been later, maybe 2000. Which means the Leoni diagrams may only cover 2000 model years & later. Time & additional diagram spelunking will tell. You could be right about the shift to the ISC & its electronic control. I don't recall seeing any diagrams that don't have the CAN buss circuit which I'm guessing doesn't exist for the fully mechanical rigs. Could even be that WRV did their own wire looms prior, couldn't say w/the evidence at hand. But since WRV did their own drawings, at least its likely that the wiring basics didn't change other than as technology & options changed (e.g there is a definite set of drawing revisions ascribed to the SmartWheel).

Do you have white wiring for chassis circuits w/black dot matrix lettering on your 98?
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Old 12-20-2013, 12:26 PM   #19
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Gauge diagnosis notes for digital gauge coaches pre-Actia:
1) to decide if its just a gauge problem, attend a rally or phone a friend & swap your questionable gauge for a known good one from a neighbor's coach. Same problem = gauge probably OK, error elsewhere in circuit, maybe a sender. Also works well for Actia gauges BTW, done it on 3 coaches now.
2) the E-One PDF file per post#16 above has replacement gauge part#'s on pages 14 & 15. I have no idea if these service parts are still available. My theory is a) your VDC/MsgCntr is programmed to your coach & gauges are a drop in item (assumes same pin config). This seems correct to me insofar as current Medallion gauges are still 5-pin, and still work off a VDC gadget (e.g. called MDC for Marine applications on boats), and gauges can read correctly off any 5 pin connector per their lit. YMMV.
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Old 12-21-2013, 03:05 PM   #20
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Thanks for all the research guys. I measured 136 ohms and 0.08 volts at the 1637 wire going into the message center. This may be about right as I have about a half tank of fuel. I get 4.6 and 3.8 volts (they alternate) at the "gauge" wire output going to the gauge. I am thing the fuel level gauge is the problem. I don't know anyone I can borrow a gauge from to test it and don't see a part number on the back of the gauge, so don't know what to order. I am driving the coach from Birmingham to Phoenix January 1-4 and will be working there through May, so may have a chance to work on more then. Thanks again for the help.
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Old 12-21-2013, 10:13 PM   #21
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I'm sure there will bean 04 rig w/same gauges@ Quartzsite between Jan 20 & 26.
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Old 12-22-2013, 06:32 PM   #22
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Do yow know a source for the gauge? The sticker on the gauge has the following information:
Borg Warner Air/Fluid Systems
6913-00200-11
4IN1 V/CT/Fuel, OP
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Old 12-23-2013, 10:36 AM   #23
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This is the statement in the link I gave you earlier.

"Today the company operates under name Medallion(TM). They
provide dash instrumentation to a large portion of the premier ski
boat manufacturers. Past aliases are Borg-Warner and Kysor-Medallion."

Contact Medallion service dept. and see if they can provide a replacement or fix the one you have.

RV-Trader has some original Alpine parts including Borg Warner.
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Old 12-23-2013, 10:41 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EngineerMike View Post

Do you have white wiring for chassis circuits w/black dot matrix lettering on your 98?
Yes I do. Some of them have numbers and some even say what they are for.
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:44 PM   #25
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I finally obtained a new multi-gauge from Medallion, installed it and fuel level still reads empty :(. Could the problem be with the message center or VDC? Where is the VDC? BTW, my message center has scrolling lights when the ignition is OFF and key is removed. Could there be a connection here? I am in a RV park in Mesa AZ now through early June.
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Old 02-15-2014, 11:38 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djdobbins1 View Post
I finally obtained a new multi-gauge from Medallion, installed it and fuel level still reads empty :(. Could the problem be with the message center or VDC? Where is the VDC? BTW, my message center has scrolling lights when the ignition is OFF and key is removed. Could there be a connection here? I am in a RV park in Mesa AZ now through early June.
What did you tell Medallion, how much did it cost, etc.? My 3-in-1 speedo/fuel/oil gauge has a broken speedometer. I'd love to get a replacement!
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Old 02-15-2014, 01:43 PM   #27
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I found this on page 5 of the troubleshooting manual
tayvaughan.com/appleton/fire/engine2/53089.pdf

A good portion of the information that the VDC uses is directly from the engine data bus. If
for any reason the data bus is lost at the VDC for 18 seconds the odometer will start
flashing. After 23 seconds the gauges will return to zero (reset) and after 45 seconds the
Message Center will start scrolling the lights which we call the return to normal.
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Old 02-15-2014, 01:55 PM   #28
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DJ- The following is taken from wiring schematics showing available gauges as:
Odometer, Speed-Fuel-Oil, & Tach-Volt-Coolant.
The Gauge wire is digitized information and is common to all gauges (i.e. that wire is spliced to send one each Gauge wire to each gauge carrying all gauge signals on a common reporting wire; its actually like a gauge "buss" coming out of the MsgCntr aka idiot lights), your VOM is useless for diagnosing that signal. Your 4-in-1 gauge has Volts-Oil-Fuel-Temp. If there is no 1637 going into the gauge, then the signal is probably mixed in w/the other gauge signals on the Gauge buss wire, as interpreted by the Message Center.

Based on the above, a good diagnosis method would be to attend an Alpine rally where you can borrow a known good matching gauge & message center. Swap just the gauge, if known good gauge works then its the gauge; if not then swap the message center & if that works then its the message center but if not then trouble is in the 1637 circuit w/maybe a chattery open or other signal giving haywire input.

Franklin- I em'd you some schematics I believe represent your actual configuration. Please check them out & report any observations.

DJ- Below is a Dash Harness wire diagram dated 5/02 that may represent your configuration, or it may not. I don't know if 2004 m.y. rigs had Leoni or Vansco wire looms; yours may be Vansco. There should be a tag next to the large bulkhead connectors inside & our w/mfgr's name. Please post that info when you get it. If yours is Vansco you should still be able to label all the inputs & outputs for gauge & MsgCntr for further analysis.
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File Type: pdf Dash Harness 5-02.pdf (577.7 KB, 31 views)
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