Go Back   iRV2 Forums > THE OWNER'S CORNER FORUMS > Alpine Coach Owner's Forum
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-23-2013, 06:40 PM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Henderson, Co.
Posts: 39
Fuel transfer pump voltage issue

2000 FDSS 36' Alpine 330hp. ISC Cummins.

Coach has died intermittent in the first 5 min of runtime while still in the driveway for the last 4 years. Will not do it but every 6th trip. No big deal just cycle the pump and off we go with not even a hiccup until we return and the stars line up for one or the next 5th trip out??????

Today we got going and drove 7 miles shut down for 1hr and went out, started coach and let idle for the regular wife getting stowed. The pulled away and died. Will not prime and no restart. The transfer pump would not run and no fuel flow. I got this!!!! I know transfer pumps are junk and this one is 13 years old. Wife go pick it up, it's in will call I'll have this one off by the time you get back.

Install new pump and nothing!!!!!!!

There is only 1.9V on the positive side when the key Is turned on or the engine is bumped. Ok I jumper B+ to the positive side of pump and roll to the lake.

I kneed to know if there is a relay, fuse or connector up line from the pump?

Is the ECM grounding the pump?

Is the ECM switching B+ through a relay to the pump with a constant ground?

I'm trying to save time in diagnostics at the lake. My wiring schematics I have onboard are chassis only, not engine.

Thanks,

Toby
__________________

__________________
2002 Country Coach Magna Journey 37' 455hp. CAT C-12 - our current Family Adventure Ride, 2000 Alpine 36FDSS Cummings 330hp. SOLD 5/2016, 2002 Renagade 21' Toter Home CAT 3046 SOLD 9/08- Henderson, Co.
tillbuilt is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 08-23-2013, 07:09 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
Skip426's Avatar


 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Powell River, B.C.
Posts: 14,970
Dodge P/Us , with ISBs , would set a code for " transfer pump voltage out of range " and I can never remember a relay in the system. 14 years of Dodge Cummins and, way more, than my share of lift pump replacements, I can honestly say I've never come across the issue your chasing.
I'll see if my access codes still work for online access to Chrysler's data base.
The wiring schematic that I have for my coach also shows, Cummins , as well as Cat , and shows 4 fuses for the Cummins ,engine harness & control module, could be a poor connection at a fuse, no breakdown of what the fuses feed.

EDIT, make that 5 fuses , 3 , 7.5 amp and 2 , 10amp. Because the ECM , was monitoring , transfer pump power use , I think the ECM , provided both , power and ground.
__________________

__________________
99DSDP 3884, Freightliner, XC, CAT 3126B, 300 HP /ALLISON 3060
2000 Caravan toad, Remco & Blue Ox.
Skip426 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 10:50 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Skip426's Avatar


 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Powell River, B.C.
Posts: 14,970
My access codes to Chrysler , won't work anymore.
I did find this on line , I hope it's small enough to post.
No mention of , lift pump or lift pump relay . But does show where you should have 12v power at the ECM.
I will keep digging.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 2011-08-04_114144_fl70cumisbiscwiring.pdf (404.5 KB, 42 views)
__________________
99DSDP 3884, Freightliner, XC, CAT 3126B, 300 HP /ALLISON 3060
2000 Caravan toad, Remco & Blue Ox.
Skip426 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2013, 10:17 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Auburn, CA, Havasu, AZ & Mulege, BCS
Posts: 5,217
Toby- the good news is you are zeroing in on the issue.
Bad news is, by running w/failing Lift Pump, you are wearing out your Injection Pump. The IP uses diesel for lubrication, and is a pretty high test gizmo so it needs the lube; starving it of lube will cause premature IP failure. IP's are not cheap, and will leave you stranded. I just happen to know.
I checked our Skip's schematic, which I added to my Library, but didn't see any lift pump control.

I suspect the operating theory never changed for LP operation, and on mine (2007 build year, vs your 1999 b.y.) the ECM supplies both hot & ground (B+ on pin09, B- on pin43. These pins are on the Cummins plug on the ECM. My rig (and I'm guessing yours) has two plugs on the ECM- Cummins & OEM. ECM is ahead of the LP, about same height and you'll see the wiring harnesses to it. The OEM plug is for the vehicle mfgr to route outputs/inputs to/from OEM installed stuff like, while the Cummins plug serves all the Cummins-installed stuff. Both are 60 pin plugs with (as you stare longingly into the plug end on loom) pin01 at upper right, pin10 upper left, pin51 lower right, pin60 lower left. As you stare longingly into the ECM socket that would make pin01 UL, pin10 UR, pin51 LL, pin60 LR.

Also if theory has remained the same, and hopefully someone w/a similar year rig will confirm, the LP should cycle for ~30 seconds each time you cycle the key ON. You can use that to do a check.
__________________
Baja-tested '08 2-slide 36'
Alpine: The Ultimate DIY'er Project
EngineerMike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2013, 10:13 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
Alpine Owners Club
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 2,226
OK, stupid thought, but make sure the pins are all pushed into the part which then plugs into the ECM.

I had a Silverleaf error could not pin down, pin not seated into the plug end. Once that was fixed, error went away. Also check to make sure all the necessary grounds are in good shape and not corroded out, it happens under the screw, and you cannot see it. Rough them up, and then use dielectric grease to prevent it from happening again. Used NO-OX-ID Special A, on all the connections in my boat, never had a corrosion issue, nor on the motorhome either.
__________________
Monty & Janet - 2007 Alpine APEX 40 MDTS
S/N - 75715 - Retired - Master Certified RV Tech
Old Rv'er is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013, 02:23 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
Skip426's Avatar


 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Powell River, B.C.
Posts: 14,970
OK, more digging around on the internet , and more questions.
Is your lift pump mounted to the underside of a fuel distribution manifold, or is it a stand alone ( fuel line in and out and an electrical connector ).
According to what I'm finding on the ISC engine , the fuel block mounted lift pumps only run ( 30 sec after key on and when cranking ) to prime the mechanical injector pump, CAPS ? The injector pump develops enough suction once the engine starts that the lift pump is not required.
This differs from the ISB's VF-44 injector pump that requires a full time lift pump.
The pdf. file is too big for me to post, I found it at .
Free books and manuals - GoBookee.net
Search " Cummins Fuel System Testing " about 20th on the page of free down loads is " Access Documents - Cummins Fire Power " with a link under it ending in CFPO8E(12).pdf pages 101 to 114 of the 346 page document show the system and describe the testing. Still nothing on where the power comes from .
__________________
99DSDP 3884, Freightliner, XC, CAT 3126B, 300 HP /ALLISON 3060
2000 Caravan toad, Remco & Blue Ox.
Skip426 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013, 09:16 AM   #7
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Henderson, Co.
Posts: 39
Skip,

My transfer pump is mounted to a distribution block on the side of the block. Not on the ECM cooling plate. I see the specs for KOEO 30sec run and the run while KOEC, but i did not see that the ECM shuts down the pump once the engine is running.

I can jumper B+ to the + side of the transfer pump KOEO, KOEC, and KOER and the engine will start and run just like it should. If I remove the jumper after the engine is running it will not create enough suction to keep running and dies. I have to have the lift pump running for the engine to stay running.

I think I'm am going to start stripping wire loom and manually chast wire to find where I am dropping 12V

Thanks for the links and info!!

Mike,

I do not want to take a chance of condemning things with our years being so far apart. I think I will physically start running down the + wire to the lift pump and start looking at connections and pins in ECMplugs and cannon plugs.

Thank you!!
__________________
2002 Country Coach Magna Journey 37' 455hp. CAT C-12 - our current Family Adventure Ride, 2000 Alpine 36FDSS Cummings 330hp. SOLD 5/2016, 2002 Renagade 21' Toter Home CAT 3046 SOLD 9/08- Henderson, Co.
tillbuilt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013, 10:33 AM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Henderson, Co.
Posts: 39
Now I split loom and pulled harness.

The + wire from the transfer pump goes into the loom and then Y's into two wires. Then proceeds to the forward plug on the ECM into pin 11 and pin 32.

I have no power out of those pins over 1.9V KOEO, KOEC.

When I back feed the circuit at the pump I have 12V at these pins so I know the harness is good.

I need to check 12V feed to the ECM for this circuit. Anyone know what pin that would be?
__________________
2002 Country Coach Magna Journey 37' 455hp. CAT C-12 - our current Family Adventure Ride, 2000 Alpine 36FDSS Cummings 330hp. SOLD 5/2016, 2002 Renagade 21' Toter Home CAT 3046 SOLD 9/08- Henderson, Co.
tillbuilt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013, 10:40 AM   #9
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Henderson, Co.
Posts: 39
__________________
2002 Country Coach Magna Journey 37' 455hp. CAT C-12 - our current Family Adventure Ride, 2000 Alpine 36FDSS Cummings 330hp. SOLD 5/2016, 2002 Renagade 21' Toter Home CAT 3046 SOLD 9/08- Henderson, Co.
tillbuilt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013, 11:42 AM   #10
Senior Member
 
Alpine Owners Club
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 2,226
All - I have downloaded the manual referenced above. I am going to e-mail to EM for the tech library. There are lots of other things on that website that is very good, so I suggest all save the link to your alpine folder.
__________________
Monty & Janet - 2007 Alpine APEX 40 MDTS
S/N - 75715 - Retired - Master Certified RV Tech
Old Rv'er is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013, 03:07 PM   #11
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Henderson, Co.
Posts: 39
Ok after checking the interface connector deutsch Hd-36-24-23st Cummings ISC harness
http://www.irv2.com/photopost/showfull.php?photo=24240
ECM and pump1 - iRV2.com RV Photo Gallery
A was switched B+
B was nothing
C was nothing
D was nothing
S was B+

I found the last 7.5A fuse in the middle holder was blown.

http://www.irv2.com/photopost/showfull.php?photo=24243
http://www.irv2.com/photopost/showfull.php?photo=24242
http://www.irv2.com/photopost/showfull.php?photo=24241
I replaced the fuse and ran my checks again:
A was switched B+
B was nothing
C was B+
D was nothing
S was B+

I then screwed the cannon plug back together and tried the key and varoom!!!!!! We have pump and fuel pressure.

So to some things up: if you loose your transfer pump actuation check the mini fuses in the service bay first!!!!!!
__________________
2002 Country Coach Magna Journey 37' 455hp. CAT C-12 - our current Family Adventure Ride, 2000 Alpine 36FDSS Cummings 330hp. SOLD 5/2016, 2002 Renagade 21' Toter Home CAT 3046 SOLD 9/08- Henderson, Co.
tillbuilt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013, 04:30 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
Alpine Owners Club
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 2,226
It should be noted, 2005 and above don't have a battery compartment arraigned like that. There (in mine) is one fuse block over on the inner bulkhead, and it has a label, showing what the fuses are supposed to do/control. I will have to take a picture and see what they all do. One I know is for the power to the RV refrigerator (APEX all had the residential refer, so this is not applicable), so I have a spare 10A DC fuse for that circuit. I was at the MH fixing a shade today, and did not see this post in time to take that picture, maybe tomorrow afternoon when I have better time and light.
__________________
Monty & Janet - 2007 Alpine APEX 40 MDTS
S/N - 75715 - Retired - Master Certified RV Tech
Old Rv'er is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2013, 04:37 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
Alpine Owners Club
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 2,226
Your diagnostic skills are top notch, but since I am lazy, I always try to do the easy things first, checking the fuse's would have been it. Now everyone knows, fuses never blow, why would that happen. The wire in them corrodes/degrades over a long time, in this case 13 years, my guess it just go old, and broke, or weak, and the starting current fired it. The older glass bulb types used to fail on the ends, where you could not see them, and had to do a continuity check to make sure they were good. Just finding for us the Cummins manual stuff is great, so to that effort, thank you all.

Was that wiring on the engine on the drivers side or the passenger side? It makes a difference, as getting in to it, would be a challenge for anyone of size. The drivers side in ours is tighter than the passenger side a bit, so I can squeeze into the passenger side, but not the drivers side. I would have to take up the bedroom floor.
__________________
Monty & Janet - 2007 Alpine APEX 40 MDTS
S/N - 75715 - Retired - Master Certified RV Tech
Old Rv'er is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2013, 11:17 AM   #14
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Auburn, CA, Havasu, AZ & Mulege, BCS
Posts: 5,217
Monty- pre-Vansco coaches have an array of fuses in the last compartment on the passenger's side, easy access.

The only sure-fire way to check an automotive fuse connection is the pull the fuse, give it a visual, then continuity check if visual is not for sure, then put a good fuse back in the socket (the orig if OK or a new one), w/a thin wipe of dielectric grease on the contacts. Reason being- spring clips that grip the fuse contacts can corrode or weaken, and the action of removal/replacement scrubs the clips/contacts & reseats the fuse. You might find a bad fuse, or you might find that the fuse connection was bad. Or you may have no joy there, then its on to further tracing.
__________________

__________________
Baja-tested '08 2-slide 36'
Alpine: The Ultimate DIY'er Project
EngineerMike is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
fuel



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.