Headlights, Dash Lights going off

[Terry W]

Finally got back to my light issue. I changed the switch and no help. I've done a little more research and I've come up with a better idea of what's going on.

Like I stated in the original post my headlights and dash lights go off for maybe 1 second and then come right back on like nothing happened. I described it as acting like a breaker automatically resetting, like a headlight type breaker. Upon further investigation I have discovered that along with the headlights, the driving lights and the 2 over the console 12v fans both go off. The taillights don't go out, but they do blink once. That's it for the dash and lighting portion.

When the lights and fan go off, the dump valve on the air bags also has a momentary operation. I thought it was coincidental but it seems to be related, happened 4 times during my testing. I'm saying the air bag dump valve because it sounds exactly like dumping for leveling. It is not the compressor pressure relief, I didn't have the engine running during my investigation.

This happens every 20 - 30 minutes, so it's a, "watched pot never boils" type of test. Loading doesn't seem to have any effect, hi beams, driving lights, fans off or on, engine running or not. I spent over an hour sitting on my porch this morning watching and listening.

It doesn't seem to be an overload or a short type of a problem. The off and back on is like a switch, no indication of anything loose, no flicker or slowing of the fans.

Any thoughts??

Thanks, Terry

[DrDaveMA]

Terry, I assume you have reset your Vansco, if not please do it.

[Terry W]

Dave,

Yepper, that was one of my first thoughts. It has been reset a few times over the past few weeks. I figured that would be the one place all of the electrical would have in common. I can see all of the lights being affected, but the fans threw me and then the air valve operating really got me scratching my head.

Any other guesses??!!

Terry

[DrDaveMA]

Originally Posted by DrDaveMA

Terry, I assume you have reset your Vansco, if not please do it.

Terry, also check the negative stud located on the fire wall near the door to be sure it is tight, too many things are having issues for it not to be something that is common to all, that is why I asked about the Vansco reset and now the negative stud. IIRC there is also a negative stud on the inside, passenger side near the Vansco box.

[Terry W]

Dave,

I checked the ground studs and the hot studs, all are tight.

I spent a couple more hours out there today, watching, listening and trying different combinations of load. The radio and backup camera aren't affected. I have no loss of power to the positive studs at the batt disconnect or the other stud on the firewall.

One things that has come to light is that with the ignition on and no other loads, lights, fans etc the air dump valve(?) seems to operate. The operation is the same as when you turn on the ignition, turn the jacks off or dump air at the HWH panel. It makes the same sound, like a valve or solenoid opening or closing.

I tried turning on the fans and lights and operating the air dump button and the on and off buttons and it has no effect on the lights or fans. The time frame is still the same, 20 - 30 minutes apart and a 1-2 second duration.

I can't make it happen!!

Terry

[DrDaveMA]

Terry, if you have a digital multimeter connect it to one of the positive studs and watch it when this happens, did the voltage stay rock steady or did it dip momentarily? What voltage is it showing?

[Terry W]

Dave,

I checked volts at the batteries, both chassis are 13.8v and all 6 house are 6.8v each and 13.7 in series, the whole bank is at 13.8v.

I hooked up a digital meter at the hot stud on the firewall and recorded it until the event. Voltage is in the 13.6 range give or take .1v, at the occurrence of the loss of volts the stud voltage dipped to 13.39, I watched it frame by frame and there was a dip but no total loss of voltage.

I have decided that the sound I am hearing is the same sound that I hear, don't know if it's normal, when I push the off button on the HWH pad. It's kind of a double click sound like you hear when you turn the key on.

Like I said, I am assuming these sounds are normal operating noises when the ignition is turned on or the HWH is turned off.

I can understand and issue with the lights and or fans, that would seem dash related. I could understand a voltage loss to the HWH system?!?! I don't get why it's only the lights and fans and not more of the dash. Cab a/c is good as is the radio.

Terry

[DrDaveMA]

Originally Posted by Terry W

Dave,



I checked volts at the batteries, both chassis are 13.8v and all 6 house are 6.8v each and 13.7 in series, the whole bank is at 13.8v.



I hooked up a digital meter at the hot stud on the firewall and recorded it until the event. Voltage is in the 13.6 range give or take .1v, at the occurrence of the loss of volts the stud voltage dipped to 13.39, I watched it frame by frame and there was a dip but no total loss of voltage.



I have decided that the sound I am hearing is the same sound that I hear, don't know if it's normal, when I push the off button on the HWH pad. It's kind of a double click sound like you hear when you turn the key on.



Like I said, I am assuming these sounds are normal operating noises when the ignition is turned on or the HWH is turned off.



I can understand and issue with the lights and or fans, that would seem dash related. I could understand a voltage loss to the HWH system?!?! I don't get why it's only the lights and fans and not more of the dash. Cab a/c is good as is the radio.



Terry

So the house battery voltage drop is from something turning on, the load causing the voltage to drop. My guess why lights and fan is that the voltage drop is on the chassis side, the lights for sure run off the chassis, not sure about the fans but I suspect so. You are seeing about 0.1 volt drop on the house side. If you can, monitor the chassis batteries while the event occurs and see what the voltage drop is there.

The HWH controls must have both the chassis and the house batteries to operate properly. At least on the '05's the chassis batteries are used to operate the control panel and the pump runs off the house. I know this because I tried to get the jacks down with the house disconnect turned off, but the chassis turned on, the control panel was lit up, but the pump would not run to bring the jacks down (I think this because the coach needs to see the HWH on travel mode before all the interlocks are satisfied). I puzzled over that one for a long time until I had the "ah" moment and turned on the house disconnect, all was fine. That is the only system that I am aware of that uses both battery banks. Your watching the chassis voltage will tell us if that is where the problem is. The other thing to do is look at what lights are turned on at the HWH board (located in the little compartment directly behind the door).

[Terry W]

Dave,

I believe I know what is going on. I won't be able to test my theory again til Tuesday, out of patience today and a commitment tomorrow. It appears that if the jacks are down, or are indicating down, there is something in the system that causes the problem. This may, or may not, be the way it is supposed to work.

While I was checking voltage and making a notation of the various lights in the HWH box of, "magic stuff", I noticed that I hadn't heard the valve operate in quite a while. I was logging the HWH lights with the ignition on, jacks down, jacks up, etc, etc. So I got to wondering if the "event" was tied to a particular jack status. I stowed the jacks and turned on the ignition and waited and waited and waited some more, over 45 minutes. Nothing happened!!

Then I ran the jacks down, turned on the control in the auto mode and waited again, patience isn't my strong suit! About 15 -20 minutes later the lights and fan go off and the valve operates.

I poured myself a glass of my "waiting" medication, along with a little tonic, and sat back and watched. About 15 - 20 minutes later, the same thing, fan off, lights out and an operation of the air valve/solenoid/who knows what you call that thing below. I will try this all again on Tuesday when I have the time and it is too early in the day for my medication.

I don't know if this is the way the system is supposed to work or if something is out of whack with mine. I do have one jack, left rear, that doesn't always retract all the way. I clean it and lube it, but it only works right for a couple of days. Looks like I'll be replacing the springs on the rear jacks. I always give the slow jack a visual before I hit the road and as long as it is close to being fully stowed I call it good. Sometimes it stows fully on the road and other times no dice.

Hopefully this is the answer to the question, I won't know for a few more days. I do find it odd that the lights go out and the fan goes off with the event. If it's intentional I can see that they may use the lights going off as a night warning, or the fans as a day warning, that a jack isn't completely stowed or is working it's way down. Maybe somebody else can prove this!!

I'll keep you posted and hopefully this will turn out to be a non issue.

By the way, I had a .15 volt drop on the chassis batts during the event.

Terry

[DrDaveMA]

Did you check the fluid level for the HWH? Also, are you getting a travel mode light when that jack does not come up all the way, you should not be?

We need someone with a 2005 to confirm this operation, mine is in the shop getting the radiator replaced, otherwise I would try.

[Terry W]

Dave,

No, I am NOT getting a travel mode light when the jack is, 'not quite up'! The last time I checked the fluid it was at the correct level.

I am curious to see if this is a design feature or flaw or Alpine peculiarity. Maybe somebody else will chime in here and let us know what they find out.

Sorry to hear about the radiator, I've have been there, bought mine through Burk Morgan, so far so good. New hoses, coolant, t-stat and all is well.

I am hoping that this is my problem!?!?! I'll let you know what I find out.

Terry

[DrDaveMA]

Terry,

The next time you have a chance, let the jack not come up, not getting the travel mode light. Get the flashing lights/fan and let it show up for 2 or 3 cycles, enough to know it is repeating, then go back to the jack, take a 2x4 or an axe, something to give you leverage and pry under the jack to raise it all the way up, if you cannot see silver it is up, It is a slow process, just hold pressure, it will go. Don't do anything else and see if the problems goes away. You may have discovered a feature of Alpines no one (at least not me) was aware of. If after X minutes and no travel mode the lights flash, fan stops running, etc. I suspect it may be just the large current draw when the pump tries to start pulling the volts down, but it would be nice to know what is going on.

I carry a long handle axe for firewood, but have been known to use it to help a reluctant jack find its home.

[EngineerMike]

This isn't a built in warning but it may be a built in peculiarity.
There should be an audible alarm when driving if a jack is sufficiently down to preclude Drive Mode on the HWH panel; you should also be sporting a JACKS DOWN message in the window below speedometer. Do you have both?
If no audible, do you still hear the CLICK sound for turn signals? Do you have High & Low tones during the gauge bulb check when turning on the key?
Do the gauges burp in any way visually during the issue?

Here are some notes for consideration:
1. Headlights are an input to & output from the front Vansco VMM, w/the input as a ground signal (headlight switch connects VMM input pin to ground); output is 12V to the lights.
2. Driving lights- same logic as #1, switch connects VMM input pin to ground to activate.
3. Fans- ditto per #1, switch connects VMM input to ground. I'm not sure if fans require key ON such that key OFF would stop fans, you'll have to check.
4. Dump valve cycling- that happens when the ignition switch goes from OFF to ON which, you guessed it connects a VMM input to ground at the ignition key.
So- no ground & all these things go to OFF, ground connected & they go to ON.
Just a guess, you may have a bad ground connection or a bad ground splice in the wire loom. All dash ground go to the main ground stud on the interior of the firewall ahead of passenger's feet, then pass thru the firewall & run to the actual ground connection to chassis (i.e. you have to check the outside also to see if ground is making it to chassis ground).
At least some of this could be caused by a bad ignition switch losing ground, although I'd expect other ramifications as well.
Good hunting.

[Terry W]

Gentlemen, I had more time to kill this morning and did a little more research.

To answer Mike's questions.

I have no jacks down alarm when not in travel mode or with a jack down light on with the ignition in the on position.

I do not get a hi or lo tone gauge bulb check when turning the key on, it does run through the check.

There is no movement in the gauges during the event.

Radio stays on.

A/C fan stays on.

I can't hear the turn signals or the hazard flashers click, I will say I never expected that I would.

Dump valve cycles when ign going from off to on. Dump valve also cycles when switching to ACC position.

Back up camera stays on.

The various switches, eng brake, oh fans, pedal adj etc aren't lit with the lights on. I don't know if they're supposed to be!

The event happened this morning a few times while I was watching, listening and making notes. That was jacks down, HWH off and ignition on.
I raised the jacks, all panel jack lights off and in travel mode and HWH panel turned off. Got the event again!

I turned the ignition off, reset the batt disconnect and the Vansco. I turned the key back on, overhead fans on and sat back. The event occurred again in 15-20 minutes, so much for a correlation between the jacks and the event.

I have checked the ground studs all are tight. I have wiggled the key up, down, back and forth not even a flicker. I pushed and pulled the wires on the back of the ignition switch, no affect on anything.

I also have no headlights unless the switch is on and the key is in the on position. No daytime lights, is this correct?

Still scratching my head,
Terry



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