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Old 10-22-2011, 09:31 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Old Rv'er View Post
Basil, please once you have it figured out, send a picture of the relay, as it sounds like it's a spare part I think I need to carry. I don't remember any relay's in my HWH compartment, but now I will have to look. It seems each and every one is different in some regard, with my luck, mine are up and behind the main board assembly, and impossible to get too.
Monty, on my 2006 Apex, the relays (one main and two pump)are attached to the bottom front of the hydraulic compartment in front of the pumps, under a plastic cover to try and keep oil off them. Terrible access!

At E-Mike's suggestion, I use Cole-Hersee 24059 relays (also called solenoids) for the pumps. Available at Ryder Truck for about $18. Good spare to carry.
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Old 10-22-2011, 11:03 AM   #16
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Basil - I have a switch on the end on the switch panel next to the entry door, which controls the S/B's outside switches, mentioned on another discussion. I leave it off because, the outside switch are toast, and I have not found good replacement switches yet. I want rocker switches, but they need to be waterproof and not have a big footprint. I also don't know how to remove the OEM one's so I don't hurt the paint on the side of the coach, some people have reported heating them up and they will come lose. I use the switches in the basement compartments/HWH bay for the S/B's. I wish the coach did not have them even though they are nice being able to lean down to get stuff and not have to crawel inside. They are just something else to break. Not sure I understood if you solved the problem or not on the HWH pump starting by iteslf? Hope to see you when I''m in Palm Springs.
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Old 10-22-2011, 12:20 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Old Rv'er View Post
Basil - I have a switch on the end on the switch panel next to the entry door, which controls the S/B's outside switches, mentioned on another discussion. I leave it off because, the outside switch are toast, and I have not found good replacement switches yet. I want rocker switches, but they need to be waterproof and not have a big footprint. I also don't know how to remove the OEM one's so I don't hurt the paint on the side of the coach, some people have reported heating them up and they will come lose. I use the switches in the basement compartments/HWH bay for the S/B's. I wish the coach did not have them even though they are nice being able to lean down to get stuff and not have to crawel inside. They are just something else to break. Not sure I understood if you solved the problem or not on the HWH pump starting by iteslf? Hope to see you when I''m in Palm Springs.
I have started a new thread although I think it may also still be buried in previous posts:
Replace Apex Smart-Bed touch pads with rocker switches

Carefully peel off the old touch pads and you won't have too much paint damage.

I continue to troubleshoot my problem and have learned a lot about how things work in the process. Beds 1 & 2 work fine but beds 3 & 4 (passenger side) blow the 15 amp fuses on the fuse block on the aft side of the hydraulic compartment which supply 12v to the center of the Smart-Bed switches. I am working my way downstream until I get to the short.

I am marking up the 2005 HWH series 2000 owner's manual wiring diagrams which also applies to the SE model regarding Smart-Bed wiring. This wiring diagram, or some other one, suggested to WRV how to install the HWH system. It is too bad we do not have the WRV drawings on how they implemented the suggestion.
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Old 10-22-2011, 07:33 PM   #18
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Basil, wish I had seen this prior to coming home from the coach, as the APEX manual has some electrical drawings in it, which may apply. I don't know as I will get to it tomorrow, but after my dental appt on Monday, I could run up and see. If others have the manual handy maybe they can look and see. FWIW - The drawings in the APEX manual are some different than the SE manual, as I have both.

Although mine is an 07, there might not be a lot of changes. I will try to remember, if no one else chimes in here about it.

Question: on the link above, I copied it to my computer as a word document for reference, but are there a total of 6 wires per switch group, or six wires per switch, the pictures look like 6 total. It also appears that the center position shares a common wire jumpered to both?? If you still have the pictures can you send them to me via e-mail, so I can blow them up some. I appreciate it a lot, knowing it can be done, do I need to heat the old ones to remove?
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:25 PM   #19
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Basil- looks like you have the old pad switches out (or else you are a Photo-Shopping genius and should be working for Pixar). Could the pump auto-activate have been as simple as a short in one of the pad switches turning the pump on?
Could also be a poorly fused relay contact (these usually come w/pitting & carbon intrusions) that has high resistance but will occasionally trickle enough voltage to activate the pump solenoid. If this latter is true I'd expect to see resistance across the relay's 30/87 contacts w/zero 12V to the coach; you'd just have to figure out which relay.
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Old 11-01-2011, 09:45 PM   #20
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Basil- looks like you have the old pad switches out (or else you are a Photo-Shopping genius and should be working for Pixar). Could the pump auto-activate have been as simple as a short in one of the pad switches turning the pump on?
Could also be a poorly fused relay contact (these usually come w/pitting & carbon intrusions) that has high resistance but will occasionally trickle enough voltage to activate the pump solenoid. If this latter is true I'd expect to see resistance across the relay's 30/87 contacts w/zero 12V to the coach; you'd just have to figure out which relay.
I have spent a lot of time off & on for several weeks on this problem which deteriorated from the pump coming on by itself to losing control of the passenger side Smart-Beds from the big rocker switches in the hydraulic bay (SE has them in entry way?) and the the small rocker switches (or touch pads) on the passenger slide(Apex only).

Small rocker switches (or touch pads)
In this Apex only system, 12 volts comes from a 15 amp fuse in the service bay to the "storage lights" (basement) light switch in the entry way. From there, it goes to the hydraulic bay and is spliced into the white wire of two multiwire cables going to the center position of small rocker switches (touch pads) on the passenger or driver side. When a switch is activated, 12V goes back down the same cable on one of 4 wires to the hydraulic bay to the coil of the appropriate small relay (8 total, 4 S/B's, in & out)which opens the HWH solenoid valve and activates the pump to move the S/B. I found that two of the passenger side relays are always activated without the switch. The remaining 2 spare wires were also hot so I can't just switch conductors. I blow the 20 amp fuse that supplies the relays.So, E-Mike, I think you were on the right track. The hot white wire is shorted to 4 of the wires coming back to the relays. We had two hydraulic cylinders replaced in the dinette slide at Guaranty (another story) and they disturbed the wire runs between the slide and the body of the coach. I suspect the cable has gotten pinched in the slide somehow. My question: How did WRV route the wire bundles between the slides and the body of the coach. Slack loops?

Big rocker switches (similar to SE)
S/B's on driver side operate normally. But on the passenger side, when I activate the switches, I blow two 15 amp fuses that supply 12V to the center of the rocker switches for the S/B's. This must somehow be related. Slide rocker switches operate normally.


I am taking my time so not to introduce additional problems and am labeling each wire, relay, switch, etc. Some future owner or technician will thank me for that.
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Old 11-02-2011, 01:52 AM   #21
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Basil - Well we were dry camping in a casino parking lot, and so I went into the HWH compartment, and low and behold, on the ceiling of that compartment were the relays you are talking about. I made sure they are in tight.

On another note, the bedroom slide refused to work on the S/L operation panel, so I put it out using the outside panel which worked fine. Then the next time we camped at a pay park, it worked just like it should have. I wonder if that slide is pinching in the hole and the level needed a little tweaking. Today I'm Las Vegas, and it worked just fine. Go figure. FWIW if it goes out correctly, it always comes in correctly.

The vanity slide however does not work from the S/L panel, it only works on the outside panel, figure after I kill the mice I seemed to have picked up while in storage, I will have to crawl into the basement and clean them out, at the same time I am going to figure out which relay is not working in that HWH panel in the basement, replace it and then it should work fine.
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Old 11-02-2011, 06:51 PM   #22
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Some future owner or technician will thank me for that.
Basil- Write up the HWH schematic & wire routing for the Library and a whole lot of Apexer's and SE owner's will thank you also.
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Old 11-02-2011, 08:13 PM   #23
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Basil- Write up the HWH schematic & wire routing for the Library and a whole lot of Apexer's and SE owner's will thank you also.
It has been my intention to do just that. I am marking up a copy of the 2005 HWH model 2000 owner's manual wiring diagrams which reflects their "suggestion" to WRV on how to implement their system with double pumps and Smart-Beds on the Apex. So, SE owners can use this for Smart-Beds and use the model 625 owner's manual for everything else. Since we have no access to the WRV design data somewhere in file cabinets at Monomoy or the landfill, this is all we have. I think I can scan it and publish it in .pdf format.

My major problem now, other than a wire run crushed in the dinette slide and shorting out, is bed 4 retract from the big rocker switches. Bed 3 works great. Bed 4 blows the fuse at the fuse block. I connected bed 3 retract to the bed 4 retract solenoid valve and blew the fuse again. I then found that the bed 4 retract solenoid valve shows a hard short, regardless of multimeter range settings. What should I read????? Small solenoid valve part number?????



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Old 11-02-2011, 11:29 PM   #24
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Basil:

Though you probably already thought of it, I would get a long chunk of 2- or 4-conductor cable and bypass all the wiring, just to test for function of each switch, solenoid, relay, pump, etc. After narrowing down or eliminating any failed parts, you'll just be left with bad wiring. At that point you can repair or bypass it as is easier.
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Old 11-04-2011, 12:03 AM   #25
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Basil- on post 20 you asked about slack loop for the slides. On the driver side kitchen slide, it is in the rear of the slide. It under the bay of drawers on the at the rear of the kitchen. You can also see it by pulling off the push in wood cover on the side of the cabinet. There is a piece of white melamine to slide on. You can see the loop with the slide in.

The HWH small solenoid part # RAP90729.
Just for information the large solenoid is RAP 0642
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:04 AM   #26
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Basil- on post 20 you asked about slack loop for the slides. On the driver side kitchen slide, it is in the rear of the slide. It under the bay of drawers on the at the rear of the kitchen. You can also see it by pulling off the push in wood cover on the side of the cabinet. There is a piece of white melamine to slide on. You can see the loop with the slide in.......
Thanks TP & Kraig. My problem cable goes thru the front wall of the hydraulic bay into the wheelwell & disappears up into the coach and must loop over to the front of my dinette slide then thru the wall of the slide to the small rocker switches (Or touchpads). I have access by removing the windowshade type shade at the end of the slide & I suspect the problem is there. In an ideal world, I would just pull a new cable but the part in the slide wall is stuck or clamped. I notice WRV had cut it too short outside and had to splice in an extension. Real world is that I am going to have to find the problem and splice around it. Not the first time I have done this on a coach.

When Guaranty replaced my dinette slide cylinders, they had move the wiring around for access and the cable must have gotten smashed, crimped, spindled or Obama'ed somewhere in the process.
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Old 11-04-2011, 12:51 PM   #27
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Basil- solenoids (both jack & slide) are wired w/a 2-terminal Delphi Weatherpak type connector. You can pull any working solenoid connector apart & ohm the coil. I get 1.1 to 1.2 ohms for both large & small solenoid valves, so assuming 13V & 1.15 ohms = 11.3A. If you have a good amp probe you can check a working solenoid for that to verify.

IIWM&I had a bad slide solenoid valve, I'd have HWH rebuild it using same end cap & 1/4" nut rather than get their new lever type release. The lever gets well in the way of installing/removing the solenoid. I made a tool that inserts to the two holes on the end of the small valve (you can check it out at DRR) that makes R&R a snap. The lever means you have to use pliers and at that if you are getting to an interior solenoid you probably have to remove the one next to the offender first just so you can get at it w/the pliers. See post#23 in Monty's thread on vanity slide issue. You can see the two holes HWH uses for solenoid assembly on the end of the lever unit in Monty's photo, and how the lever body gets in the way of using them.
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Old 11-10-2011, 04:26 PM   #28
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As I suspected, the cable running from the small switches (touch pads) on the dinette slide was routed incorrectly when the cylinders were replaced in Junction City and got mashed when the slide retracted, thereby damaging a number of wires inside the cable. So, when we had the pump come on for no reason, some of the wires shorted out (vibration?), activated the relay and started the pump.
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