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Old 10-13-2011, 02:05 PM   #1
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HWH pump comes on all by itself

We were sitting here in Palm Springs when I hear the HWH pump come on and load up against closed solenoid valves for no reason. Nothing was activated. Thank God we were here or the pump could have burned out. I ran out and turned off DC power to stop it. I spent some time troubleshooting to no avail. Later, I reapplied DC power and all was well for an hour or so until the problem came back.


Any ideas out there? Currently I am trying to rule out the Smart-Bed circuits.
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Old 10-13-2011, 02:09 PM   #2
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You sure Sage the Wonder Dog isn't stepping on the switch? I've had that problem with my two dogs. The HWH should time out and go to sleep mode after a few minutes. What's a SMART BED?
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Old 10-13-2011, 02:20 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perry White View Post
You sure Sage the Wonder Dog isn't stepping on the switch? I've had that problem with my two dogs. The HWH should time out and go to sleep mode after a few minutes. What's a SMART BED?
Smart-Beds are hydraulically activated basement drawers peculiar to late model year Alpine coaches. The drawers extend out for no head banging easy access to stuff in the basement. Great innovation!

All the switches are external to the coach so the dog is innocent. This is not the case sometimes in the car when he locks the doors.
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Old 10-13-2011, 03:36 PM   #4
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In Palm Springs already ! I cant get there for another month.
I'd put my money on a defective power relay. Pull off the two small wires and see if it happens again. If it does , dont leave the coach until you disconnect the power lead from the motor and isolate it .
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Old 10-13-2011, 07:38 PM   #5
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Don't think its a standard relay or solenoid if the pump is coming on by magic. If it went off w/DC off, then on when DC was switched back on, then it would sound like welded contacts.

How do you do a Sliverleaf reboot? Is that separate from DC on/off?
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Old 10-14-2011, 12:51 AM   #6
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Basil, long shot, reset master switches; you know by turning off and back on. Sounds like a spurious Silverleaf action operation. Check the wires in the HWH bay to make sure the insulation on one has not abraded away and is going to ground causing this. Lots of sharp edges in there (at least there are in mine), so this could be it. If you have the dual motor setup, switch it to backup instead of primary and see if it happens again, then if it does not, something in the motor is causing it. One other thing, could be stuck switch for one of the S/B's or slides, you know almost on, but not quite, or almost off, but not quite maybe. Let us know.

Where in Palm Springs are you? Was leaving next week, abscessed tooth found so not leaving for three weeks I think, rats, hate the rain.
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Old 10-14-2011, 01:21 AM   #7
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As far as the Silverleaf, it is turned on by the ingnition switch and there is no on off switch on it. All the times I have talked to Silverleaf, they never said anything about rebooting.


If you have a probem with a relay, here are the part numbers. The small is a Prestolight SAZ-4201GC. The large is Prestolight SBJ-4201. The large one does have a small resistor that goes across the small terminals to reduce surges. You have to measure the resistance and get it at Radio Shack.

It seems to me if the pump came on didn't do anything, it probably isn't in a switch. You should be able to disconnect power to or from all the switches and see if it still does it.

One more thing could be if there is problem in the HWH circuit board. Maybe you could try disconnecting the wires to the board. The toggle switches in the HWH Bay bypasses the Silverleaf and you can run everything manually except the jacks.
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Old 10-14-2011, 03:09 AM   #8
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All - APEX coaches have the silverleaf on by default all the time if coach master switches are on. With that said, there are only two ways to access itís interface and make it do stuff, 1)via the ignition switch and the user panel on the dash, or 2)via the TV set, with the S/L remote and screens displayed, where you can do everything as well. To level, extend slides, etc; the key must be in the accessory position, at least on the ones I have worked on.

The Smartbeds work all the time from two places, either the switches on the side of the coach, provided the master switch inside has been turned on, or at the HWH panel in the bay provided that switch has been turned on so that panel is energized. So another test is to turn off both switch for the S/Bs and see if that stops the pump from running. If that works, then, one of the S/B switches is sticking, so just keep in mind the master switches for S/Bs need to be kept off till the culprit is id'ed.

Something still I think has to cause the relay to close, although it could fail I suppose and run on its own, but I believe the internal spring in the relay keeps this from happening. Nice information on the relay numbers which I will keep for reference, so thank you.

If the pump runs, it tries to pressurize the system and make something open/close/extend/retract. The pump is just that, pumping up pressure for work to be done. Since using the HWH system via the S/L, in each control board area, a relay would be energized for slides to extend or retract. The S/Bís are wired directly not through the HWH control boards as I understand it, WRVís thinking was you need to be able to get into them regardless of if the HWH boards are working or not.

Something caused the pump to start, which is why I said a shorted wire, or a partially closed or opened switch. But if the diode which was discussed in a previous thread is at fault, or if the board is shorted out, this also could cause spurious actions for the pump. If this is the case, either motor would then run, as the board is calling for action, hence pump starts regardless of which one is selected. Most APEXís have dual pump motors on the HWH system, but not sure all of them do.

Also not sure if the circuit board can be bypassed and stuff still work, but you could disconnect the S/L via the power connector in the tank bay (where mine is located) which kills S/L and then see if the problem occurs again. You would only be able to do stuff using the HWH Switch panel in this case (I have not figured out how to level coach if S/L system is off line, since there is no other way to access that feature except with silverleaf). If it does it's not S/L causing the issue so now you are back to shorted board, wire, or some weird signal.

I'm leaning toward the shorted wire as a switch needs to be pressed for action to happen since they are all spring loaded to keep them in the off position. But a switch can get stuck, as my drain master hose switch sticks and it wants to send the drain hose out. If the S/B switches are the original ones, they fail and could fail in on position, but then it would seem a bed would try to open or close, again causing the pump pressure building up noise. So for every slide/smartbeds, I would make sure none of the switches on the HWH panel are sticking nor the S/B switches on the side of the coach either.

For grins, you can turn off the inverter, and then turn off the master switches on the coach for 15 seconds, and see if this resets some weird thing causing this action, itís a long shot, but worth a try. It is also possible the S/L master control box has gone south, again causing this to occur, so by pulling it's power connector, this would eliminate this as the cause. I believe it's like a computer hard drive power connector 5 wire flat D shaped thing, if my memory serves. I have a wiring diagram for all the connectors for the S/L, it might be on the tech library now as I mailed it to EM a while back.

Now their is one other long shot, on some APEX's, WRV wired into the S/L, and external temperture sensor, it's located in the floor of the tank bay. They did a crappy job of this and it hangs out in the eliments, and gets wet, shorts out, and causes the S/L computer to do weird things. So you can open the tank bay door, find this sensor on the floor, and follow the wires up to the S/L computer and just unplug those wires, then see if this goes away. When mine shorted out, my S/L screen was blank and nothing worked. Silverleaf knew exactly what was wrong when I called, so I was able to get it working by just disconnecting this sensor. I redesigned the way it was mounted through the floor, and replaced the sensor, and have not had any issues with it since. I like to know the bay temps versus the outside temp which is what this one does. Worth a try to see it this is the reason.
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Old 10-14-2011, 09:45 AM   #9
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Skip, don't rush down here too early. It was 106 in Rancho Mirage yesterday but cools off to the low 90's next week.

All, thank you for your inputs. Looking at the 2000 series HWH owner's manual wiring diagrams which apply to the Apex model and the SE model as well (partially), here are some points about the operation of the Smart-Beds:

The Smart-Beds are totally independent of the Silverleaf system. On the SE & Apex coaches, there are four WRV supplied DPDT switches (one for each Smart-Bed) that are hardwired to the HWH solenoid valves and the coil of the pump relay. When a switch is pressed to move a Smart-Bed, one side of the DPDT switch applies power to open the HWH solenoid valve and the other side applies power to the coil of the pump relay. Valve opens, pump comes on and Smart-Bed moves.

Note also that the Smart-Beds are independent of the HWH circuit boards. HWH provided the solenoid valves and WRV hardwired them to switches.

Apex coaches offer a second way to operate the Smart-Beds. WRV installed touch pads which were unreliable and most owners have replaced them with rocker switches. These touch pads or switches apply power to the coil of the appropriate one of eight relays, one for each bed extend and retract. These relays are mounted on the forward wall of the hydraulic compartment on my coach.

So, since the operation of the slides appears normal, I have isolated my problem to the Smart-Bed circuitry and am honing in on the pump relay which gets a LOT of use.
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Old 10-14-2011, 04:40 PM   #10
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Basil, please once you have it figured out, send a picture of the relay, as it sounds like it's a spare part I think I need to carry. I don't remember any relay's in my HWH compartment, but now I will have to look. It seems each and every one is different in some regard, with my luck, mine are up and behind the main board assembly, and impossible to get too.
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Old 10-22-2011, 02:45 AM   #11
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On my '07 Limited SE (no silverleaf) the pump started running as soon as ignition was on. After much discussion with HWH had to return entire control unit for repair. Now I have to have the key on to use smartbeds but the slides work with key off.
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Old 10-22-2011, 02:59 AM   #12
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Strange, have S/L, but don't need key on for smartbeds period. But using s/l need key on to level coach and extend/retract slides. This is true regardless of TV interface or dashboard interface. I can level coach using TV interface w/o Key, but need key in Accessory position to extend slides. Must be a wiring thing/silverleaf/ thing. It even says key in acc position for using slides on TV interface.
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Old 10-22-2011, 09:03 AM   #13
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Quote:
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On my '07 Limited SE (no silverleaf) the pump started running as soon as ignition was on. After much discussion with HWH had to return entire control unit for repair. Now I have to have the key on to use smartbeds but the slides work with key off.
Back in 2006, I pointed out to WRV that it was a security issue that the Smart-Beds could be operated from the rocker switches without the key on. However, I open/close my S/B's often and it would be inconvenient to have to turn the key on. It is strange that HWH was able to make a control box mod for this. In troubleshooting my current problems, I have found that a 40A in-line fuse puts 12v on a Master Power switch on the HWH panel which puts 12v on a fuse block with 8 fuses on the rear wall of the hydraulic compartment which puts 12v to the center position of the rocker switches for the 4 slides and 4 S/B's. So I can secure the S/B's independent of the key. Of course, every model year was different. Do SE model coaches have a Master Power switch?

Apex offered the touch pads (or owner installed rocker switches) as a second way of operating the S/B's which used the basement light switch in the entry as a way of turning off that function.
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Old 10-22-2011, 09:29 AM   #14
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Basil, please once you have it figured out, send a picture of the relay, as it sounds like it's a spare part I think I need to carry. I don't remember any relay's in my HWH compartment, but now I will have to look. It seems each and every one is different in some regard, with my luck, mine are up and behind the main board assembly, and impossible to get too.
Monty, on my 2006 Apex, the relays (one main and two pump)are attached to the bottom front of the hydraulic compartment, under a plastic cover to try and keep oil off them. Terrible access!

At E-Mike's suggestion, I use Cole-Hersee 24059 relays (also called solenoids) for the pumps. Available at Ryder Truck for about $18. Good spare to carry.
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