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Old 09-04-2015, 02:06 PM   #29
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For isl and allison service $1100 total. About $500 less than Ft Worth Cummins quoted.
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Old 09-04-2015, 02:11 PM   #30
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I know those Joints don't have 745,000 miles on them...a couple squirts of grease goes a long way.....
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Old 09-04-2015, 02:29 PM   #31
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Sorry guys about the mention of the center bearing, should of read more thoroughly about being diesel pusher
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Old 11-25-2015, 04:33 PM   #32
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Low speed drive train shudder - update

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLMunsil View Post
I have the same issue on my Alpine. It's been like this since I purchased the coach new. Like yours it shudders when going 3 to 5 miles per hour. I checked and adjusted the ride height and checked pinion angle It's about 2 1/2 degrees. I have replaced the universal joints, changed fluid in rear differential, and changed fluid and filters in transmission. I had Henderson line up drive it and had a ride along with with an Allison tech. Henderson thought I was to sensitive. The Allison tech said it wasn't the transmission.
I have just been putting up with it the last couple of years.
If you discover anything I would be curious to know what it is.
Have now completed chem analysis of trans fluid (before drain, filter change, and refill) - nothing remarkable. No change in shudder symptoms after trans refill.
Inspected motor mounts - pulley end mount 1/16" motion side to side due to 1) slotted bolt hole in mount, 2) no washer to cover slot, 3) one full turn loose on both nuts. Installed Grade 8 washer, torqued to spec, no change in shudder symptoms.
Checked ride height front / rear; front within specs, passenger rear at 7.0" vs 7.5". Adjusted to 7.5". Drive shaft to pinion shaft angle equal to zero (differential pinion end "tipped" up 5 degrees); lengthened fore/aft torsion arm to reduce tip to 2.5 degrees, resulting in net drive shaft to pinion angle = 2.5 degrees. (re-checked ride height at 7.5). no change to shudder symptoms.

having exhausted possibilities (I think) external to transmission, believe problem related to slippage in torque converter (low speed, before lock-up) notwithstanding good chemistry / absence of material in filters. However, since minor shudder not operational problem and way too expensive to open transmission for a "look", intend to "put up with it" while continuing to check transmission fluid chemistry.

also plan to mount GoPro camera to focus on each end of driveshaft to see if any "whip" visible that indicates problem with engine mounts not visible with inspection.

any other ideas / thots greatly appreciated.
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Old 11-26-2015, 05:24 AM   #33
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Thanks for the update.
I have 95,000 miles of putting up with it so far.
Does not seem to get worse over time.
Maybe it will get better on it's own.


08 34-ft fdds
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Old 11-28-2015, 03:53 PM   #34
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Low speed drive train shudder

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Originally Posted by JLMunsil View Post
Thanks for the update.
I have 95,000 miles of putting up with it so far.
Does not seem to get worse over time.
Maybe it will get better on it's own.


08 34-ft fdds
understand, Jim, but...
20 yrs experience on my submarines taught me a problem never seems to get better on its own, so going to keep looking with the GoPro. Even going to try and get wife to drive the coach in a big empty parking lot while I have the MBR bed up and watch the engine / trans / drive shaft / diff with camera and see what happens. will likely post even if nothing seen.
r/s
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Old 02-24-2016, 02:12 PM   #35
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Smile Low speed drive train shudder gone

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLMunsil View Post
I have the same issue on my Alpine. It's been like this since I purchased the coach new. Like yours it shudders when going 3 to 5 miles per hour. I checked and adjusted the ride height and checked pinion angle It's about 2 1/2 degrees. I have replaced the universal joints, changed fluid in rear differential, and changed fluid and filters in transmission. I had Henderson line up drive it and had a ride along with with an Allison tech. Henderson thought I was to sensitive. The Allison tech said it wasn't the transmission.
I have just been putting up with it the last couple of years.
If you discover anything I would be curious to know what it is.
here ya go JL and I hope it works for you. after doing all the stuff you mentioned (see previous posts), had a suggestion from a long-haul truck operator to one of our forum members (same problem) at Quartzite in January. Member took his Alpine to Venture Truck facility in Ventura, CA. and had them align the two knuckles of the U-joint retainers by rotating the two pieces of the drive shaft about the splined joint (contrary to all previous mandates - "put the DS back in exactly as removed"), presumably maintaining the same orientation of the companion flange at the transmission and the U-joint in the diff pinion yoke. It worked to remove the member's shudder. After finding the two DS knuckles displaced by exactly 90 degrees (as delivered from previous owner), I dropped the shaft, rotated the two pieces to align the knuckles, and Yahoo! - no more shudder. So far have only tested for resultant induced vibration to 50 mph, with none detected. If I detect high speed vibration, I intend to take the drive shaft to a drive line fabricator in Tacoma, WA for balancing, a common shop practice among hot rodders redoing DS's for custom builds.
Good luck on your problem.
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Old 02-24-2016, 03:20 PM   #36
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Brilliant! Good job.
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Old 02-25-2016, 12:03 AM   #37
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Smile More info on low spd drive train shudder

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Originally Posted by dhschultz39 View Post
here ya go JL and I hope it works for you. after doing all the stuff you mentioned (see previous posts), had a suggestion from a long-haul truck operator to one of our forum members (same problem) at Quartzite in January. Member took his Alpine to Venture Truck facility in Ventura, CA. and had them align the two knuckles of the U-joint retainers by rotating the two pieces of the drive shaft about the splined joint (contrary to all previous mandates - "put the DS back in exactly as removed"), presumably maintaining the same orientation of the companion flange at the transmission and the U-joint in the diff pinion yoke. It worked to remove the member's shudder. After finding the two DS knuckles displaced by exactly 90 degrees (as delivered from previous owner), I dropped the shaft, rotated the two pieces to align the knuckles, and Yahoo! - no more shudder. So far have only tested for resultant induced vibration to 50 mph, with none detected. If I detect high speed vibration, I intend to take the drive shaft to a drive line fabricator in Tacoma, WA for balancing, a common shop practice among hot rodders redoing DS's for custom builds.
Good luck on your problem.
I have added some pics to clarify where to rotate the pieces of the driveshaft, a pic to show the splined joint seal pulled back to permit rotation of the two DS sections, a pic showing 2 guide pins made to ease PB drum rotation w/o disturbing its relationship to the trans output flange, and a .pdf pic of "knuckle alignment".
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Old 02-25-2016, 12:08 AM   #38
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Low speed drive train shudder

Pictures and .pdf file depicting meaning of "knuckles" were blocked by some web-site rule. If those docs desired by any forum members, pls advise and I'll send by separate correspondence. Sorry for inconvenience.
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Old 02-25-2016, 04:59 PM   #39
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Photos from email by BSchultz.
Here is the drive shaft as removed from Bob's rig, note the round white paint dots for original lineup, and note that left hand yoke of the DS section is horizontal (as determined by a horizontal plane thru the legs of the Y), and right hand yoke is vertical thru legs of the Y:


Here is a close up of the alignment paint dots, original alignment:


Here is a close up of the spline section, Bob slid the right hand part out, rotated the right hand yoke/spline section 90 degrees so yokes would be in same attitude and you can no longer see right hand paint dot:

He slid the DS back together, threaded on the dust cap, reintsalled, no mo shudder.

From the photos I can see how this works, but for the life of me cannot figure out why that works to eliminate the shudder. If the respective parts are properly balanced and spinning, how could that produce a shudder regardless of comparative rotation of the install?
I'm stumped.

Bob- I resized the images down to ~100k each, uploaded them onto the Photos section of iRV2, then used the photo link icon above reply window to link the photos in. Photos have to be "hosted" someplace on the web, might as well use iRV2's photo space.
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Old 02-25-2016, 05:02 PM   #40
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Low speed drive train shudder pics-fix is in

here's the pics I spoke of in a .pdf file. maybe this will work.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Drive shaft shudder correction pics.pdf (588.7 KB, 24 views)
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Old 02-25-2016, 05:11 PM   #41
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Watch this video.

https://youtu.be/gmV4qwLfOMY
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Old 02-26-2016, 11:07 AM   #42
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Drive shaft video re: input output angles

Fantastic demo, Twinboat. Thanks for the post. Unfortunately, I'm forced into the ellipse category of drive shaft operation because the input angle is fixed by the engine / transmission angle of the engine mounts. The output angle is able to be adjusted by tipping the differential with the torque tube (looks like a typical automotive tie rod that can be lengthened and shortened by loosing lock nuts and twisting) attached to the frame and the top of the diff. Before changing the DS sections relative orientation, I had set the diff tip angle (and consequently the DS to pinion yoke angle) to factory specs of 1.5 deg to max 10 deg with no change in shudder. As best I can measure, it appears the factory knew of the Spicer reco to have the input and output angle approximately equal to minimize the elliptical motion. In any case, happy with the bottom line, and now a better understanding of why a shudder can be induced.
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