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Old 05-16-2011, 12:57 AM   #29
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Boy are we having fun now!!
The VIP which doesn't show its sending signal doesn't work, and the Actia which shows its sending signal also doesn't work. I'm guessing they are both working, but signal isn't coming thru properly to the ECU (which nukes my theory that high idle is "the same" as cruise. CC takes signal to hold vehicle speed, and RES (or is it SET) bumps speed while the other nick an mph or so off. So I was wrong equating CC to RPM control directly, it controls speed by adjusting fuel rate which is different.
1) New theory- There are two plugs to the ECU, the Cummins plug and the OEM plug. When you talk to Cummins, ask specifically about the OEM pin-outs and which if any are related to the high idle feature. Could be WRV didn't push all the OEM pins fully home and one or more isn't making contact.
2) When Cummins fiddled around w/the issue- did they use their scan tool to bump up RPM as you would the high idle feature? And did they do it from the front diagnostic plug?

FYI- Cummins sells an ECU "map" that folds out to large format, and comes plasticized, for ~$15. I bought the one for my coach's ECU last time I was at the Cummins store. That map might help think this thru. It shows the ECU pin-outs iirc. They need your engine serial# to order the correct map.
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:34 PM   #30
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EMike--yes we are having fun. My guess is exactly the same as yours. The signal is not getting to the ECU, due to a wire/connect problem, or maybe, the ECU is set properly but has a fault in its code, or may be generating a fault warning.

I talked to VIP today, and learned the PC209 control module is not programmable. It is a plain digital circuit board with no memory. Later versions of their control module (which aren't on our Alpines) have some minor programming features. I talked to a different technician, a guy named Dan, and he remembered problems with WRV and their SmartWheel issues, generally related to the cruise control. He said that WRV wired some of the coaches so that the VIP control module got power totally from the ignition. There are two power inputs to the control module and one must be wired to the ignition and one hot to the battery. The control module needs a hot feed all the time on one lead. The easy way to test this is see if the lights flash and if the wiper will swipe once if you hit those buttons with the ignition turned off. Mine worked fine, so it's wired correctly.

Dan went on to say that their is not other diagnostic than that in the troubleshooting manual, and since it's working, it's asking the ECU to bump fuel rate, as you said, Mike.

I wasn't there when Cummins Yakima tested the parameters and made sure they set them correctly; they just gave me a printout. So I didn't see if they bumped high idle with their computer. I do know they use the plug in the battery compartment, not the one in the front of the passenger seat. That's the one all of the Cummins locations have used. It does allow resetting of the parameters, so I'm guessing it's working, but it might be worth it to try it from the front plug.

I will try to get my hands on one of those ECU maps. I left a message again for Mike Young at Cummins Yakima to ask him about these same questions, since he personally tried to figure out the problem when I was there two weeks ago, but left before I got back to the coach.
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Old 05-16-2011, 09:21 PM   #31
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I'd definitely have the front plug checked as I expect it is in the circuit from the front Vansco & VIP connections; might be a branch. Mike Young can probably comment on how that is wired in. I doubt its straight thru that plug, but if there is a comm problem on the front plug I'd suspect its related to the VIP-comm/Actia-comm problem and give a point of departure for investigation.

Might check the voltage inputs on the VIP module anyway- maybe they have two non-ignition inputs? Not sure why that would be a problem, but I'm not sure of anything in this puzzle.
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Old 05-17-2011, 12:50 PM   #32
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EM & OF - in reading of's narrative, for the wiring for power supply, the hot lead hookup would also be one of the parasitic loads on the batteries unless the coach is off.
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Old 05-20-2011, 12:19 PM   #33
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Old, do this check just to verify. On the Actia speedo hold both buttons in while turning on the key. The screen you get will tell you if the self test is on (yes) or off (no). push the m button (left) to change screens until you get to the idle adjust screen. Check to see if it says yes for on. If not you have to get Actia to change it. If it is than your idea of the ECM not getting the signal is probably correct. Check also the screen for High idle. I don't know if this has anything to do with the smart wheel signals or not. My knowledge is exhausted.
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Old 05-21-2011, 02:26 AM   #34
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If I remember, I will try it tomorrow, going to take a bath in Hydraulic Oil, since I have to change the solenoid valve in the rear manifold so the vanity slide works. No, I am not looking forward to getting oil all over me. Lots of towels, etc to catch it if possible.
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Old 05-22-2011, 04:57 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by JLMunsil View Post
Old, do this check just to verify. On the Actia speedo hold both buttons in while turning on the key. The screen you get will tell you if the self test is on (yes) or off (no). push the m button (left) to change screens until you get to the idle adjust screen. Check to see if it says yes for on. If not you have to get Actia to change it. If it is than your idea of the ECM not getting the signal is probably correct. Check also the screen for High idle. I don't know if this has anything to do with the smart wheel signals or not. My knowledge is exhausted.
This suggestion was for OldForester not Old Rv'er. Sorry I guess I am getting old.
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Old 05-22-2011, 10:23 AM   #36
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JL -- planned to do that check by today but didn't get a chance and I have jury duty this week; but as soon as I get back to the coach I'm going to give it a try.
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Old 05-24-2011, 10:29 PM   #37
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JL -

Managed to get to the coach late today and check the idle speed adjust on the Actia per your response. It shows high idle adjust is set yes for on, on both idle adjust screens.

So this rules out one more item -- the Actia settings appear to be oK. There are some more tests I need to do but didn't have time today. Just wanted to let you know that I'm continuing to believe there's a problem with the signal getting to the ECU or the ECU not accepting it.
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Old 06-02-2011, 04:24 PM   #38
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An update on this issue--I have tried all the suggestions listed in this thread and have done all the SmartWheel tests and the Actia speedo tests, and by talking to the VIP techs. Still waiting a call back from Actia but don't think they will be able to provide much because it seems to be set correctly.

I have also talked to Cummins Yakima and they assured me they tested the ECM while I was there last month and the ECM has no fault codes and the parameters set on the ECM are correct for high idle, as shown on the printout of these parameters they gave me. It matches other printouts done in the past.

I learned one thing from them I didn't know, and that is ECM is the correct nomenclature for the Engine Control Module, and that ECU refers to the brain in the Allison Transmission (thinking is must be something like Electronic Control Unit for Allison's terminology). So all this time I've referred to ECU and it should be ECM.

My thinking now is that another possibility is that the linkage between the tranny and the Actia and Smartwheel inputs to the ECM for cruise at idle may not be working correctly. I'm guessing that the control units for these don't sense either the tranny is in neutral, or it's thinking the service brake is applied or, it's thinking I'm going less than 30 mph and therefore the cruise won't work, as it should when one's driving and tries to engage cruise. Both units require that input -- basically that it's OK to set the cruise control for the engine with tranny in neutral and speed under 30 mph.

Both Actia and VIP/SmartWheel, from what I've learned, simply provide cruise control inputs to the ECM, and those inputs are somehow laundered between inputs from the tranny, the service brake and the vehicle speed to allow the engine to go to high idle by increasing fuel flow. There's not a separate "high idle" input, other than an input to allow cruise to be 1)set and 2)bumped up by either the speedo or the SmartWheel set/resume features.

So the problem may be input from the tranny to the ECM. Don't think it's the service brake because that function works fine when driving. Haven't tested the coach with it driving and CC set, and manually shifting the tranny to neutral to see if the CC releases, which I think it would to keep the engine from revving excessively when driving.

One thing that would be of help to me is if anybody has an ISL400 engine - coach, like my 2006 or perhaps a year or two earlier, on an early 2007, and has a printout of the ECM parameters, if they could somehow send me a copy, I would like to cross-check it with my printouts and make sure Cummins hasn't missed something on the settings. If you could, PM me and I'll let you know how to get it to me.

Thanks in advance for your help.
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Old 06-02-2011, 04:51 PM   #39
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Here's an Insite work order on my friends ISL 400 2007 Alfa. I reset the idle . Hope it helps.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf ISL 400 Insite readout 4-18-2011.pdf (191.3 KB, 37 views)
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:30 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djhinds View Post
My buddy has a 04 Beaver with a Cat in it and I thought it should work as my 04 Monaco Sig but it does not. He has to hold down the RES button for a few seconds before the fast idle starts, then it works the same as mine. Try that.

Dave

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I have an '04 Travel Supreme wth 400 Cummins ISL. The sequence for high idle is:
Parking Brake set
Allison in Neutral
Cruise power "on"
momentarily press Resume button
Engine will Increase RPM to 1000...
Sounds like some installs use set to set high idle and others use resume.
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Old 06-03-2011, 12:19 PM   #41
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Perry,

Thanks a lot for sending me the ECM parameters you sent on your friend's 2007 Alfa ISL 400. I compared them with my settings and while some of the rpm numbers are different, such as you set the low idle to 800 rpm and ours is set at 700, there are a few settings that are different that I would like to check with other Alpine owners, to see if they are set the same as mine and if there's a reason they are different for the Alfa:

1)In J1939 Multiplexing section, the service brake switch on the Alfa is set at "enable" and my coach it's "disable". This is a concern based on my last post.

2)in PTO/Remote PTO:
a)accelerator override in PTO on the Alfa is set at "enable", and on my coach it's "disable".
b)clutch override in PTO on the Alfa is set at "enable", and on my coach it's "disable".
c)maximum engine load in PTO on the Alfa is 1200 ft-lbs and it's 2100 ft-lbs on our coach.
d)Maximum PTO speed is 1400 rpm on the Alfa and 1200 on our coach.

These are the major differences; the others are relatively few and I can't see any possible connection with the high idle issue.

So, do any other Alpiners have knowledge of these settings on their coach, and if they're set differently than our coach?
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Old 06-03-2011, 04:53 PM   #42
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O F What is your ECM code? Did they upgrade it to the latest revision when it was at Cummins?
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