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Old 04-29-2011, 10:58 PM   #1
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SmartWheel High Idle Issue

After going through the previous discussions and threads on this topic I decided to start a new one. Our high idle, using the cruise control, has never worked. I didn't know I had one until several people pointed it out to me last winter. The coach idles at 700 rpm in all engine temperature conditions no matter what we do to it, short of holding our foot on the accelerator while it warms up, to keep it at 1000 rpm (which we have been doing). I have had several Alpiners try to help me make it work but it doesn't. I have traced the wiring on it as best I can and I come back to the cruise control switch on the SmartWheel, or at least some relationship between it and the Vansco system.

This week I had it in to Cummins Yakima for annual and 50,000 mile service, and chasing any potential engine/tranny issues that might exist that I didn't know about before it goes off the 5 year warranty, and I had them work on the high idle issue. Robby worked it till he was tired and couldn't find it, and then he had Mike Young work on it until he was tired of it and their conclusion was it was a problem in the SmartWheel. Mike said that WRV had a a number of these coaches with this issue and they all ended up back at the SmartWheel and they fixed them but, nobody here remembers the fix.

So my first question to the forum is has anybody else had this issue with the high idle working with the Cruise Control Switch in the SmartWheel, and if they had it fixed, what was the fix?

My second question is does anybody know of somebody in the west that can repair SmartWheel issues? I have no other SmartWheel issues other than this one, so I'm not anxious to create a bigger issue.

Thanks for you input to this issue --
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Old 04-30-2011, 02:32 AM   #2
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Our 2003 F/wood Revolution DP on a Freightliner chassis has the SmartWheel. I have access to the Daimler Trucks/Freightliner website, as many other here have also. (It is a tedious process to get it, but worth it if you have a Freightliner chassis.) Anyhooooo.....on that website, Freightliner displays a very detailed, step-by step diagnostic procedure that they recommend techs use to PROPERLY diagnose SmartWheel issues and problems, including speed control and fast idle. Are the Cummins techs using this? If not, then perhaps they should check it out if possible....probably would save time and $'s.

I may be wrong, but I think SmartWheel is installed by the chassis manufacturer, not by the Cummins folks. Perhaps taking the coach to a Freightliner dealer would be more productive, even if your coach is not on a F/liner chassis. On our coach, I push the s/c button followed by the set button, and we have fast idle. Didn't work the first couple times I tried it....'till I noticed my foot resting firmly on the brake pedal out of habit. No problem now. Hope you get it sorted out, and please let us know what you find out. Thanks....
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:40 AM   #3
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OF, My high idle has never worked either. It would be nice but I have, I just got in the habit of pre-warming the engine with the HH. In fact I have forgotten how to activate it if it did work.
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:58 AM   #4
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Wayne,

I don't have HH so I have to do it the slow way -- foot on the accelerator to hold about 1000 rpm until it warms up. Usually I employ my co-pilot to do that while I do other stuff but she is getting a little tired of it. If I can't solve this issue with the SmartWheel, I've got a couple low tech solutions I'm going to try, like a movable clamp I can set to hold the accelerator at the right position from the seat, or a well-cut board. I might do that in the meantime until I get it solved.

I will look into the Freightliner info; don't know if it applies with our Peak Chassis, and don't know if the Fleetwoods used a Vansco system, as Mike thinks the wheel might not be getting a feed it needs from the Vansco for the high idle.

I'm also wondering if there's a way to wire in a manual high idle switch like the earlier Alpines had.
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Old 04-30-2011, 12:04 PM   #5
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My '04 has a fast idle switch in addition to the Smartwheel on the left side of the drivers compartment, along with the transmission selector and other switches. Tap one side to raise the idle speed, or tap the other side to lower it. Assuming yours has one too, does it work?
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Old 04-30-2011, 04:30 PM   #6
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Unless you are checking your dash A/C compressor or something, the idea of a fast idle for "warm-up" has been pretty well debunked on this forum. Drive slow when you first depart for a few miles--save the environment and the folks camped next door....[smile].....
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Old 05-01-2011, 02:04 PM   #7
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OF - Here is the link to the troubleshooting manual on the manufacturer’s website. There is a Wealth of info here. Believe it's also on the ACA Tech Library. Hope this helps. Where are you now? Are you going to be in Anacortes for the rally, if so we can troubleshoot it then, I will bring my tools and stuff?
http://www.vipwheels.com/PDF%20FILES/TROUBLESHOOT.pdf
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Old 05-02-2011, 12:29 PM   #8
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Jim A -- my '06 does not have the high idle switch you speak of. I have seen that switch on earlier coaches. That switch was replaced by the foot pedal adjustment switch by WRV when they came out with hanging pedals, based on my coach and the earlier coaches I have seen. I am guessing WRV decided there was no need to have both a high idle switch and a high idle adjustment via cruise control, so they replaced the switch with the pedal adjustment switch when they came out with hanging pedals.

Old Scout-- I was initially trying to get the engine to high idle to help build up air pressure faster for my low air suspension issue. Since I replaced the roto chamber and solved that problem, I haven't needed a high idle to build up air pressure. What I'm trying to do is get the engine to warm up faster at 1000-1200, which I think is better for the bearings, rings, and cyclinder walls in the engine than idling to 140 degrees or so at 700 rpm.

Old RV'er-- I am in Tacoma but not going to Anacortes. I will have to hook up with you someplace else if I don't get the issue solved before then, and I thank you for finding the troubleshooting pdf. I looked at it and it's not clear how the CC connects to high idle. I'm wondering if my coach is setting the CC based on vehicle speed only, with no connect to engine RPM, and that would explain why it won't set the engine rpm or raise it when the coach is standing still. I'll just have to do a little more digging on it but appreciate your interest and help. I may come back to you some place when we are near each other.
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Old 05-02-2011, 01:27 PM   #9
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OF - Your welcome, I did not read the guide, but just downloaded it to the PC. I believe I have a printed copy in the motorhome. Sorry we won't hook up but I will keep you posted on our travels so if we overlap, we can hook up. PM Me with your e-mail address and that we we keep it off this forum.
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Old 05-02-2011, 08:59 PM   #10
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OF- if your smart wheel sets cruise correctly, then the unit is hooked up properly to the rig's "network" via a twisted pair. I believe you can see the twisted pair connection on the VIP module behind the PS kick panel to the left of the Vansco modules. If the ECU doesn't see the signal, then either VIP isn't sending it, or ECU isn't programmed to receive/recognize it. I have no idea how to test either theory; hopefully the troubleshooting manual will have a clue; maybe it takes somebody w/the software to hook up to the coach diagnostic plug to address the VIP.

Cruise on totally electronic engines is by ECU, as is acceleration. High idle is basically Cruise in Neutral. I believe this goes by the J1939 twisted pair network direct from smart wheel module to the ECU because there is no Vansco input on front module for a signal, and there is no output on the rear Vansco for cruise or idle. There is a Cruise Cancel input on front Vansco (corresponds to LED 23 if I'm reading the schematic correctly; you can probably confirm that by depressing the brake to see if 23 lights) but that's all the cruise Vansco schematics show.
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Old 05-02-2011, 11:36 PM   #11
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Mike-the cruise control is set correctly by the SmartWheel; all the functions work. Didn't know high idle was cruise in neutral. Next time I'm at the coach I will take off the PS kick panel again and look for the twisted pair connection on the VIP module. I agree either the VIP isn't sending the signal to the ECU or the ECU isn't programmed correctly. At Cummins Yakima we once again hooked up the computer and made sure all the switches, including PTO and high/low idles speeds, were set correctly (only about the 3rd time I've been down this road with setting those switches; practically got them memorized).

But their may be a separate diagnostic that a SmartWheel tech can access that isn't part of the ECU parameters. I just need to find a good SmartWheel tech to help me, because I don't want to screw up the rest of the SmartWheel settings, which have always worked like they should.

I'll look for LED 23 to see if it lights, but Cruise Cancel works just fine; used it plenty of times yesterday.

My guess is there's a loss of signal someplace between VIP module and ECU, so maybe it's a wiring issue between the two, but that would make me think the other functions wouldn't work on the ECU connection. And maybe there's a problem inside the VIP module, which might make more sense.

Anyway, thanks for your help - I seem to always have one "difficult to diagnose" issue going on. Sort of reminds me when I was an Aircraft Maintenance Officer in the Air Force on B-52's during the Vietnam War. Had a lot of planes that got "CND" in the forms for a repair of an inflight problem --"Could Not Duplicate" on the ground. Was always a sell job for me to convince the aircrew to take the plane with CND as the listing for the repair action. They really didn't like CND for flight control system or electrical issues.
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Old 05-03-2011, 07:35 PM   #12
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Well Bill, you now have a CND coach.

I'm guessing its a VIP programming issue. The VIP module, like the Vansco, is a generic device capable of adaptation to a variety of parameters, tho the VIP is closer to purpose-built as the buttons are fairly specific. Behind the buttons there has to be some programming so VIP can be adapted to a whole variety of engines, etc., and the high-idle probably came unprogrammed. Might be like setting a Cummins parameter, but in the VIP software screen.
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Old 05-03-2011, 10:45 PM   #13
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Mike, my bias, after thinking about it, is the same as yours. I have a CND coach, and I think it's a programming issue in the VIP module. But to make sure, I'm going to check all the wires between it and the SmartWheel to make sure none are loose, especially at the wire crimp attachments. If not, then I need to find somebody who can check programming in the VIP module. I'll have to do some research on line to see if I can find somebody to do that.

And in the interim, I'll fine-tune a piece of lumber or a clamp to hold the throttle at 1000-1200 rpm during warmup. Might be able to brace it between the extended console and the accelerator instead of the seat and the accelerator.

Next time we meet I'll have to share a couple B-52 aircraft maintenance stories it would take an engineer like you to really appreciate--
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:18 AM   #14
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My buddy has a 04 Beaver with a Cat in it and I thought it should work as my 04 Monaco Sig but it does not. He has to hold down the RES button for a few seconds before the fast idle starts, then it works the same as mine. Try that.

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