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Old 05-01-2011, 07:54 PM   #15
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Mike & All, when we took delivery of our 07 in May 08, the jake did not work at all. Neither Hi nor Lo positioned produced any transmission down shift, nor engine did not change RPM. First place I took it was Allison, they hooked into the Data Port and the transmission tested fine. So then I took it to Cummins, they checked the engine through the data port and found that it was not getting a signal from the switch on the dash. They checked the actual wiring at the switch, and it was labeled “Start Boost Switch” and the one on the SBS was labeled “Engine Brake”, they changed them back to the correct place and it has worked since. You had Cummins check it in Salem, and through the data port, it does what is supped to do. But from the ECM it never gets the high signal at the engine so that is where the problem is, which you confirmed because of your test. While they are at it, make sure that the fuel rail bracket has been installed correctly, as there is a recall on it for the ISL-400, yours may have been fixed on the production line, but it never hurts to be safe. Geat Job on the test ideas and how it turned out.

It’s my understanding that when the techs plug in their computer into the data port in the battery bay, they are just taking to the ECM, not the engine directly, and this would be true for the transmission as well. So it’s reporting back I’m ok, and as you suspect there is a wiring breakdown from the ECM to those two connectors on the engine.

Now, if they find, that the problem is not right on the engine, they are going to charge you. I don’t know if telling them about your test would void the warranty or not. But you could outline to them a way to test the mechanical operation so they don’t tear it down thinking it’s a mechanical problem versus an electrical one, which would get them on the same page as you are. We had to pay around 157 in labor for ours to be fixed, had it been on the engine, no charge, but since WRV reversed those plugs, and they were gone, we were stuck for the repair. I’m glad it was as simple as it was, but I kicked myself, because I knew how poorly these things were wired from the factory, and I could have at least checked those things myself. Now before I take it anywhere, I check the wiring on the issue first to make sure it’s not that.

FWIW – genset can be started from Silverleaf console on dash and from TV, however, it does not report its operating data to the S/L readout on the TV, i.e., Engine temp, RPM, voltage output, amp output, etc., so I have a lose wire. I called S/L, and got the layout of where the wires start from and go to, now all I have to do is run down the loose connection. My gut feeling is it’s loose on the connector on the genset, and Wednesday I am going to look into it and see. I have checked the bayonet connectors on the front of the genset bay, and those are all nice and tight. The connector into the S/L computer is also good. Let hope I can figure out where the loose connection is so it works as it should. It’s not a life and death thing, but it bugs me.
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Old 08-08-2011, 03:08 PM   #16
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Jake not working

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Originally Posted by EngineerMike View Post
When we took delivery at the factory in 2007, september-ish, there was no Jake. I sent it back to the chassis shop where they claim to have remade the ECU connector to fully push 3 pins in place, and voila! there was Jake. However it took me a while to realize there was only one stage whether switch was in Lo or Hi. Been doing some research at rallies, in engine bays, at Cummins, etc., and here is the current update:

1) I had my engine ECM read by Mike Young of Cummins Yakima at the Salem Rally last year to discern if there was a programming error. No error, he could read parameter set for 2-stage engine brake. Further he could read Jake-Lo Commanded when I flipped the switch to Lo, and Jake-Hi Commanded when I switched to Hi. He concluded either a) wiring between ECU and Jake was not installed properly, or b) Jake is busted. He offered that they had had some type b) problems from time to time.
2) Each bank of 3 cylinders corresponds to one "stage" of jake, i.e. one 3 cylinder bank engaged = Lo, all 6 cylinders of Jake engaged = Hi. There are two bullet connectors on the RH side of engine, each about at the front or rear quarter point, near the level where the valve cover splits from engine. The female/wire connection of the bullet simply pulls off & snaps back on. You can get to the rear one easily thru engine hatch to see what it is & how it works. If you apply 12V to the stud going thru the "Pass-Thru" into the head (the bullet), you will hear the solenoid that is supposed to be controlling the Jake bank of 3 cylinders "click." On my rig I can hear each of the two bullet connectors report a "click" when I apply 12V; one is slightly higher pitch click than the other. On other coaches some have same pitch click, some have discernible difference like mine.
3) took rig to Cummins West in West Sacramento w/Jake complaint. They did shop-test of applying 12V and got "click" and concluded all was well, both banks "work". I asked if they road tested, and Oops. So shop foreman road tested; couldn't discern difference. They told me there was a "recalibration" which is their word for ECU programming change, which rendered all calls for Jake to Jake-Hi, so that was what I was getting. Yeah, right.
4) I tested jake under way on I-5 subsequently, at freeway speed. To do this I split the wire-loom at the 2-pin Delphi connector near front of engine (you can trace the loom forward & down from the forward bullet connector on head & find this 2-pin connector), and installed a purpose-built connector & loooong pigtail (wife wanted to know why she was tripping over wires coming from engine) so I could drive & volt-test at the same time (probably a ticketable offense, so I had DSW do the volt readings). Commanded Jake-Lo thru the dash switch- got 12V to rear 3 cylinders (nearest engine hatch) but no voltage to front 3 cylinders. Commanded Jake-Hi at dash switch and got 12V to both banks. I.e. rumor of recalibration = B.S.
5) I ran coach up to 75mph on the straight w/Jake-Lo "ON" and let off the gas, jake engages & engine/trans downshifts; I snapped the Lo/Hi switch to Hi and there was a momentary disengagement of the Jake as switch went thru Off, but once back On there was no change in the degree of retarding.

Conclusion: Hi stage on my jake is busted. Need warranty work.
This affects at least two other 2008 rigs in the early round of ULSD-only engines. I'm posting here in case anybody else is having this issue.
I have a 2004 CC Intrigue w/ 400 ISL. High or low on the switch the Jake comes on in low mode and trans downshifts to 4th gear. That's all I get.
Is this a Cummins issue or an Allison issue??
Thanks

Tom
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Old 08-08-2011, 03:48 PM   #17
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FWIW - I recently took my coach into RM Cummins here in Denver because I only had "Low" Jake Brake even when selecting the "high" position. It took them about 15 - 30 minutes to determine an open connection existed in the Jake Brake solenoid harness connector. They cleaned the connectors an now both "Low" & "High" work as expected. They also checked the ECM and verified that its programming was correct.

I had previously taken it to a more generic truck & RV shop. They verified that the solenoids worked but couldn't access the ECM (wasn't the problem any ways). They charged me $562 and didn't fix anything! The point being: take it to Cummins - they may charge a little more but they know what they're doing and work quickly (at least RM does).

I wouldn't go ANYWHERE unless my Jake Brake worked correctly! Makes a big difference in driving safely in my humble, non-expert opinion.
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Old 08-08-2011, 04:38 PM   #18
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Thanks but why is my trans only downshifting to 4 rather than 2
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Old 08-08-2011, 05:29 PM   #19
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I believe it may be programmable but gear #4 is the appropriate downshift. If it (or you) attempted to downshift to 2nd gear when the Jale Brake kicks in, you'd probably have engine &/or tranny parts laying in the road behind you as you come to semi-permanent stop. Mine kicks in somewhere around 60 - 65 MPH (or lower of course).

Seriously, I thought that my Jake Brake went back into 5th gear when "Low" is selected but that was from my memory before a battery fire destroyed the ECM. In retrospect, I don't think 5th gear would really do much based upon my manual downshifts without Jake. The use of 4th gear seems to be quite effective for both "Low" & "High" selections.
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Old 08-08-2011, 10:28 PM   #20
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Allison can be programmed to "hunt" for 5th or 4th. Most rigs come programmed to hunt for 4th, but the downshifts require a max rpm level, which the rig achieves (hopefully) by peeling off speed & therefore rpm's, then downshift to next gear, then repeat.

BC- was that open connection in the Jake Brake solenoid harness connector inside the head? I can hear both solenoids inside the head click when 12V is applied to the "pass-thru" stud, and I can read that each receives 12V in the appropriate Hi/Lo setting (2 if by Hi, 1 if by Lo), but don't get any added braking w/Hi. Sounds like what you were getting, am I correct?
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Old 08-08-2011, 10:56 PM   #21
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Jake Brake

Jake brakes are usually set up with 6 cylinder Hi and 3 cylinder low. However I have had units that were setup with 2 switches that were 2 cylinder brake or 4 cylinder brake and 6 cylinder brake with both switches on.
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Old 08-09-2011, 12:52 AM   #22
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My Jake Brake works fine in either high or low, but I wasn't happy how the Allison was programmed. Went to the Allison dealer, checked my transmission VIN # and they told me they all come programed from the factory to operate with Jake Brake in 3-4 gear only. I didn't want that. That APEX is heavy and I tow either my 4-Runner or Tundra P/U. They can program it to work with any gears you want. I had them reprogram it for 3-4-5-6. Took less than 5 minutes and lucked out they didn't charge me for it. I run the brake in high and now have full manual control on my braking and it works a lot better.

As I remember my 2000 with a Pac Brake was programed for 4-5-6. I had Allison reprogram it for 3-4-5-6 and it worked a lot better too.
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Old 08-09-2011, 10:45 AM   #23
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EMike - Yes, your description is identical to what I experienced. In fact, the generic truck / RV shop supposedly checked the solenoids and claimed they were "clicking". However, they didn't verify connectivity through the ECM harness and couldn't get their software to access the programming. They thought it was password protected but RM Cummins claimed it isn't.

The RM Cummins technician told me that he checked the connector at the ECM (after verifying the programming) and observed an open connection on the "High" activation lead. He said he then cleaned the connector that ties the solenoids to the ECM harness. He said the connectors may not have been "seated" as well as they should have been but cleaned them any ways. He then had connectivity where he had an open and the "High" Jake brake worked properly.
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Old 08-11-2011, 08:10 PM   #24
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Rats. My situation is different.

I've verified there is signal at both Jake pass-thru studs on the head and 12V to one 3-cylinder bank on Jake-Lo, two 3-cylinder banks on Jake-Hi. So my problem is in the head. I have an appointment w/the Cummins shop in West Sac where they lied to me about having an ECM "recalibration" which supposedly defaulted to a one-stage Jake, to meet w/their shop manager before diagnostics proceed to assure they are really going to attempt a real fix this time instead of blowing me off, then we'll see what happens. This has been a major frustration having to learn the operation of the Jake to be able to tell the Cummins tech's they are full of poop and where they should look for the trouble.

I'm thinking the low pressure oil gallery from (or maybe even to) the Hi-stage solenoid is plugged or maybe was never drilled out, as that would neuter the whole second stage. The beat goes on....
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Old 08-12-2011, 06:56 AM   #25
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The Allison and engine will NOT down shift if over speed or over rev will result. They will NOT self destruct.

If yours is programmed to downshift to 4, you're missing a lot of braking power.

Mine was programmed to select 2 and as the speed dropped, the Allison would downshift as appropriate.
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Old 08-12-2011, 12:03 PM   #26
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All - First although used the same, ISL-400 powered coaches have an "engine brake", older coaches and SOB's (some other brands) have an Jake Brake, which works off the exhaust manifold in some manner and is marketed by "Jacobs, INC" so hence it’s called a Jake brake. Ours (Alpines) are operated (as explained above in various dissertations) from the engine and transmission. Both high and low positions move the transmission to 4th gear immediately when engaged, low allows 3 cylinders & valves to close on both the intake and exhaust side, and high uses all 6 cylinders. I can tell a markedly difference feel between the two positions, and usually leave low on all the time when driving in traffic or through small towns.

Now I'm no expert, but, I believe it's possible to overrun the engine if applied at too high a speed, so I don't engage mine at any higher speed than 50 MPH. I know from downshifting to 4th gear going uphill, that 50 is around 2100 RPM, and the engine rev limiter will engage at around 2300 or so. I don't know if the rev limiter works when the engine brake is engaged, but I have seen the tach report 2500 RPM when I forget to turn it off and take my foot off the throttle when on the interstate. So my suggestion is at least for alpine owners to not apply it at any speed higher than 50 MPH. I know “Jake brakes” can be engaged at higher speeds, as truckers use them all the time and are going much faster (noise level is much higher than mine) than I downhill. The rule of thumb is not to go down any faster than you went up, and that is still taught in CDL drivers training.
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Old 08-12-2011, 03:46 PM   #27
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I drive with my Jake Brake in High all the time, unless I'm on a long gradual downhill and high is too much brake. I like high in traffic a lot better than low, because the vehicle speed is naturally slower and it helps stop quicker when I need it. Just use the foot brake a lot less.

Also since my tranny is programmed for "auto cruise enable" the Jake has to be on high for it to work when the cruise is engaged, hence I leave it on all the time on the highway. I've had it engage on high many times when I had the cruise set for 58 to 60 and the coach reached 65-67 on a quick downhill burst on the freeway and it works well. But it's also correct that the Jake won't engage if the RPM gets up in the 2300 area when cruise is not on, and the engine rev limiter comes on.
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Old 08-12-2011, 04:49 PM   #28
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OF - going to assume, my tranny is already programed, because I had no EB when we purchased the coach, and Allison plugged into the data port and talked to the tranny and it reported correct operation when they tested it.

I called cummins in PDX about the rev limiter for the latest information, as I have heard different things. He said going down hill, if the engine went over it's redline with a large load it could overrev. He also said, just getting off the freeway at an exit, it would not hurt it to have the engine brake assist in slowing down. He did say they had a motorhome in the shop now with a valve through the head/piston, and the front gear sheared off from an overrev situation, so it can happen. I am going to do as I have done since new, not engage engine brake at any speed over 50-53 MPH, and then I won't overrev by accident. Momentary situations where you forget the EB is on, and slowing down, wont hurt it because you notice the EB on, and put your foot to the pedel to disengage it, and then switch it off.

But what I would like to see happen, is a Cummins Rep be at a rally and answer this question directly for the whole group, as different people have heard different things, and it appears 05 and later coaches are set up different than earlier coaches.
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