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Old 08-18-2011, 09:19 PM   #43
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As I've mentioned on earlier posts, I have tracked every trip, every tank on our coach since we bought it 5 years and 50,000 miles ago. I've also tried it in hilly country, which we have a lot of in the Northwest, with Jake off and Jake on, and under no-wind, same direction, same speed, I see no difference with Jake on or off. I've also watched the Silverleaf with Jake on high going down steeper long dowhills, and I still get the max 99.9 rolling mpg, or at least a very high mpg. Shut the Jake off on same downhills, even if under 99.9 mpg and rolling mpg is nearly the same.

Just can't see the difference. It's still 7.80 mpg over those 50,000 miles, adjusted for generator hours at estimated 7 gallons per hour. BTW, my Silverleaf says I've average 8.1 mpg over those 50,000 miles vs the 7.80 actual.
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Old 08-18-2011, 11:36 PM   #44
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In theory the EB won't affect mileage, though speed management up an down hills will, though not a lot. Of course if you dirvie up and down all day long, it might show.

Bob's coach and mine were manufactured in early/mid 2002. I wonder if it ever got 13 mpg, boy that'd be nice. Maybe both our coaches are post-programming. It's nice of the government to make sure our mileage sucks and fines the company that can make it better. I imagine is was most likely pollution-related.
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Old 08-19-2011, 08:21 PM   #45
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Coach is back from Cummins West (West Sacramento, CA). No change in Jake function. They took a wildly different approach to this visit, which was outstanding, but didn't concur that I have limited Jake function. They:
1) test drove and concurred verbally there isn't a large difference between Jake-Lo & Jake-Hi, which concurrence did not make it into their write-up.
2) tore down the jake level of the head, removing the jakes.
3) adjusted the "overhead" meaning valve train, but found everything w/in tolerance enough that any adjustment made would not account for anything functionally wrong
4) re-installed jakes & EGR cross-over to shop test
5) called me in to observe jake functioning at idle when 12V applied to fore or aft jake solenoids (engine shakes as 3 cylinders are robbed of fuel/air charge when jake opens exhaust valves to release compressed contents, jake slave cylinders load up w/oil, no oil aeration (which if present means insufficient oil pressure to operate low pressure side of jake actuation), and then an 8" squirt of oil up from slave cylinders as 12V is removed & jake de-actuates).
6) re-assembled whole top end w/covers, reprogrammed tranny to hunt 2nd gear instead of 4th, I test drove in the West Sac neighborhood w/shop foreman in attendance. West Sac is flat as a fritter so no hills to do a proper analysis, especially w/change in shift hunt which gets in the way of figuring out what part of braking (downshifting or jake or VGT*) is doing what. So I took it up I-80 not quite to ~6000' elevation (West Sac is ~10'), then tested all on downhill. In Jake-Lo I get slowing that has to be due to Jake &/or VGT, then slam it in Jake-Hi and it slows (call it 6% grade) a wee bit more. Nothing really noticable, same as before. My theory is if you need a micrometer to see if its different, its not. Folks w/06 M.Y. coaches say Hi vs Lo is Day vs Nite, which is how I remember my 06. Noticed I don't have Jake operating in CC anymore. Headed back to Cummins (~150 test drive, nice day in the mountains) to get CC programming fixed & settle up.
7) they were good to me on the bill, makes up for previous visit.
8) Cummins Rep was in the shop, he test drove it & declared "I can tell difference in both Jake stages, works good, your service brakes are lousy (which I knew, and am working on a plan for that). Basically 180 degrees from my observations. Of course he only drove it with the new 2nd gear shift hunt programmed. He also invited me to meet him up on I-80 for further field test if I felt it necessary at a future date.

*For others w/the Diesel Particulate Filter/ULSD-Only engine, there was a change to the turbo from prior years, called "Variable Geometry Turbo" which opens up or closes down tolerance on turbo chamber to produce more or less boost. The tightest setting used in Jake settings works like an exhaust brake (like Pac-Brake), in addition to working the Jake as per prior years. Supposably (yeah, I know that's not a word, but I like it), that results in more brake-horsepower than before. Maybe, just maybe, my problem is that the VGT sets a floor under the engine braking that didn't exist before, so that jake action isn't as noticeable. I got a graph from the Rep to study, and he's going to try & scare up the comparable info for the 05 engine builds for comparison.

In short, if you have what you consider insufficient Jake action, and your rig only downshifts to 4th then stays, you may want to have the transmission reprogrammed to hunt for 2nd which continues the downshifting as soon as the rev-limit will allow, effectively making continued Jake action automatic. Or you can manually select lower gears (not my idea of convenient when in traffic, or when some liberal in a Volvo darts in front of me in a freeway constriction.
That's all for now; I'll add to this thread if anything further occurs.
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Old 08-19-2011, 11:32 PM   #46
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EM- I wondered if the 425 engine and its particulate systems may be a contributor to your issue. It is night and day between hi and low on our 06 on the Jake, as you remember on your '06. It does sound like the 2nd shift hunt helped. The main thing is are you getting a noticeable enough slowing to prevent service braking on those 6% hills or are you having to use the service brake? Mine will hold itself to the same speed in jake-high on 6% hills with no issue, with auto shifting to 4th. Above 6% I sometimes have to add a little brake or shift manually to 3rd.

I will be interested to hear what you learn from the rep on that info versus 05 engine builds, as our engine was built in the fall of '05 (think we were only 3 coaches apart on the production line from your '06 - we are #75561). Your guess on the VGT setting a floor under the engine braking makes sense, given your description.
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Old 08-20-2011, 07:18 PM   #47
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Mike. I got the same engine you have and I think my coach was built a couple months before yours (Cummins # 46695468). On mine there is a big difference between high and low. When turned on high, it really kicks down abruptly in 4th and holds down no problem without my service brake. I said in an earlier post I had my transmission reprogrammed so I can use it in 5th, if not too steep of grade or to upshift at the bottom of the grade. One difference between ours is that I had new turbo and turbo actuator installed In Jan 2010. I don't know if it is the same part # or upgraded #. I can look the # if you want. I don't know if it could be the turbo or there is something else in the programming.
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Old 08-21-2011, 02:13 PM   #48
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OK, to totally throw a monkey wrench into this...

I have a very early 03..

my 400 ISL has an exhaust brake, one position switch....

Works fine (so far)

yet another "variable" in WRV builds
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Old 08-24-2011, 12:31 AM   #49
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EM I am interested in the reprogramming of the tranny to seek 2nd or 3rd instead of 4th when EB engages. Can you give us any pros and cons after this was done?

The switches for my EB and battery boost were also reversed, but this was discovered on a test drive and fixed before delivery.

Mine came programmed for EB "on" in CC and I love it. I is so subtle I didn't even realize it for a long time. You set the CC for 60 and it goes up hill at 60 and down at 63-64. The gear selected never changes it's just seamless. If I touch the brakes the gear selector goes to 4th and braking in ernest begins.

Once I realized I had this feature and loved it for smoothness of driving, I began to see a potential for lost MPG. Now if the road and traffic ahead allows for some use of gravity to gain speed to rise the next hill, I switch off the EB and let her roll. But most of the time smooth is better.

I also almost always leave the EB switched to high when in freeway and city traffic. Those red lights can jump right out in front of you.

Also never a problem over reving the engine, just because it selects 4th gear the gear attained is never lower than the engine will allow. You must use the service brakes to slow the vehicle to allow the down shift if you are outside of the paramiters.

But back to your problem of Hi and Lo EB being near the same brake effect. I think mine is near the same NOW. I never used Lo much before, I figured if I need brake I need BRAKE. Just before arriving at DRR this year I was getting a check engine light. It never stayed on for long, 15 to 30 seconds, but occurred a half dozen times on the way back to Tucson.

The long and short of it was the light was coming on when the EB engaged while in CC. The Cummins repair in Tucson with trouble shooting help from the factory determined the low vloltage condition was cause by a bad ECM. They replaced it on their nickle and sent me on my way, for about a mile or two. Turns out the original ECM was fine and after more trouble shooting with the factory, there was some valve under the engine cover at fault. Check engine light fixed.

But now I swear that there is very minimal, but still noticable, difference between HI and LO. But since I never used LO much before, I can't be sure that it has changed with the new ECM. The mechanic assures me the programing before and after is the same.

I'm wondering if any other 08s or 09s are seeing a strong difference between HI and LO EB, or if is minor tor them also?

If you ever discover what your cause is under the engine cover it may be my limiting factor now. When I get down to the motorhome in October I'll check the paper work to see what was really changed.

NOTE: if anyone needs a new ECM make sure to get a complete print out of the history before they pull the old one. Even though they copy the programming the history is gone. The good news your average mpg starts over (the only way to start it over).
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Old 08-24-2011, 06:14 PM   #50
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Tom- your driving experience, and your proclivities match mine.

The shift-hunt for 2nd takes your shift pad from 6-6 to 2-6 instead of 6-6 to 4-6. All it does is continue seeking a lower gear till it gets to 2nd, instead of limiting the downshift to 4th. This is real handy on short offramps. It acts the same in regard to rev-limit, downshifting only when the next lower gear won't over rev. I'm told this is Allison programming exclusively.

Oddly, I may have lost the EB-works-in-CC feature as of that Allison reprogramming, but not completely sure (Cummins was baffled, as its not their parameter that changed). I'll be road testing tomorrow and can confirm or deny then. I'll be on my way to Berendsen Fluid Power's West Sacramento shop for flow/pressure testing on service brake side of the PTO/hydraulic pump.
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Old 10-04-2011, 02:19 PM   #51
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I know this is off-thread, but:
O.F., shouldn't the correction for generator hours be 0.7 gph? 7 gph is prime-mover (ISC) level of consumption.
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Old 10-05-2011, 11:40 PM   #52
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F&D ABQ:

You are correct -- it should be 0.7 gph for the generator. Missed that decimal point in my post.
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Old 10-07-2011, 05:55 PM   #53
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I saw another post or spec reading 0.1gph diesel usage (to continue the hijacking of my own thread).
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Old 10-07-2011, 10:58 PM   #54
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If I did that, it must have been after a little too much wine late at night. Or maybe it was the Beefeaters earlier. My guess is I average between 0.5 and 0.7 gph because I usually run the generator with a load on it, but rarely at full load. Seems to work reasonably well at 0.7 when I look at my tank-to-tank usage, whether I'm going North or South, East or West, and how much wind I'm going into.

BTW, have you got that Jake Brake fixed yet under the warranty?

Bill
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Old 10-08-2011, 02:26 PM   #55
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Bill- no fix to report. Apparently the 'feel' of the VGT engines is quite different than the earlier non-DPF/VGT engines (looks like both "improvements" came under same model change). I had the shift hunt reprogrammed to hunt down to 2nd rather than stop at 4th, which gives substantially more engine braking to lower levels. I could always do that manually w/the shift pad, but its a nuisance when you need to slam on some brakes.

So I'm working on implementing the 1.75" master cylinder swap. W/that improvement to service brakes, plus the lower automatic shift hunt, I think I'll be satisfied w/the braking and happy w/the way the rig drives, even w/spousal unit at the helm.

Then I need to figure out how to fix the cruise control programming which appears to have reverted to no-Jake-in-cruise version. Not a fatal issue, but much preferred Jake-in-cruise option was nice.
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Old 10-11-2011, 03:52 PM   #56
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Mike,

Not sure if it's the same on yours, but on my ECM printout there's a parameter for "cruise enable" that simply has to be set on, along with the max speed override limit. Cummins couldn't get mine to set lower than 7 mph, but that still works well.

Wouldn't have guess the "feel" of the VGT engines was that much different. Reprogramming the shift hunt down to 2nd should really help on hi setting.

We will all be interested in the 1.75" MC swap.
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