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Old 02-15-2010, 08:24 PM   #15
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Business 101. I don't get the gist of your response (#14).
But you do have a nice looking dog.

Kerry
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Old 02-15-2010, 08:33 PM   #16
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i think the gist is that businesses that want to stay in business don't commit millions of bucks to satisfy what might be merely a surge in demand that will subside.

this economy has not played its final card yet and anyone who makes long-term capital commitments based upon what is happening today is foolish.

bob tiffin is not dumb. neither is he foolish. what he is, however, is still in business--with the 2 top-selling coaches in the industry while businesses like country coach are sold on the auction block for pennies on the dollar to the highest bidders.
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Old 02-17-2010, 01:05 PM   #17
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Guys, I didn't start this thread to bash Tiffin Motorhomes or Mr Tiffin personally. It was more directed towards the dealer I spoke with at the Houston RV show. I've personally had communications with Mr Tiffin and have nothing but the utmost respect for he and his product. And, like Cruzer commented, you don't have the number one and number two selling motorhomes just by being lucky.
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Old 02-17-2010, 02:16 PM   #18
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Guys, I didn't start this thread to bash Tiffin Motorhomes or Mr Tiffin personally. It was more directed towards the dealer I spoke with at the Houston RV show.......................
FWIW, I didn't have any problem figuring out it was the dealer

Maybe I'm missing a company or two, but I'm thinking that Tiffin and Newmar may be the only two FAMILY owned RV builders left. The rest are publically owned corporations or owned by private equity firms. Same thing with "some" of the retail dealers who sell RVs.

The mere fact that Tiffin and Newmar have survived this economic downturn (which has been going on for almost 2 years now) is remarkable and to assert that they may be "poorly run" is ludicrous IMO.

The list of poorly run RV companies that have literally disappeared and left their customers with "orphan" coaches is fairly lengthy. Some of the largest of these are National RV (Tradewinds, Dolphins, etc), Western RV (Alpines), ALFA ( See Ya, Founder's, See Ya Gold) and most recently Country Coach Corp, (who's assests were liquidated earlier this month).

The former Monaco Coach Corp ( Monaco, Holiday Rambler, Beaver, Safari, etc) is now owned by Navistar (which also owns Workhorse, among other businesses) and the once mighty Fleetwood, with multiple brand names like Pace Arrow, Southwind, Bounder, and high end products like the American Eagle, Tradition, & Revolution LE is now a much more streamlined company owned by AIP, LLC (private equity firm) and offering fewer products made in fewer locations.

Congrats to Tiffin employees, dealers, and owners who have combined to make Tiffin coaches some of the most sought after available in today's diminished RV market. We all are suffering with limited choices and longer delays due to this poor economy and it's widespread downsizing which was apparently necessary to survive to fight another day. Ramping up production to the days of "instant gratification" is gonna take a while, me thinks.
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:02 AM   #19
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It seems counter-intuitive that it would take longer to get things in a down economy. You would think with fewer orders in the plant you could get special-order items like a motorhome much faster, but that's not how it works. Wise business owners cut their workforce and their inventory to the bare minimum in an effort to survive. And it works the same way on down the supply chain, so the delays are multiplied. Unfortunately, those who have the cash to make a purchase may have their choices reduced and/or may have to wait longer to get what they want.

When buyers see RV manufacturers dropping like flies, if they are in a position to buy they look for a manufacturer with a solid footing and a good reputation. As others have said, there are undoubtedly a lot of RV manufacturers out there who wish they had Tiffin's backorder problems.
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:22 PM   #20
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All of this hindsight sounds good. I wasn't really BASHING Tiffin. I'm sure everyone here has spoken to Bob and he's a good guy.
But back to my original statement about legions of buyers outside of Bob's door wanting to buy a coach and there are few or none to sell. This is good business??
Please, no more hip bone connected to the thigh bone, thigh bone connected to the knee bone crap. And who are these manufacturers wishing to be in Bob's shoes?

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Old 02-18-2010, 04:26 PM   #21
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And who are these manufacturers wishing to be in Bob's shoes?

Kerry
Well I would imagine all of those that have no coaches on back order and placed orders for components that they now have no immediate need for. Now who is the brilliant one that wrote that business plan?

Again, I'm sorry this thread has gotten so far off base. Many of us have written business plans that weren't worth the paper they were printed on in twelve to eighteen months. I'm sorry, I shouldn't make a blanket statement like that. I have written some business plans that weren't exactly up to snuff and unfortunately I was the one holding unneeded inventory.
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Old 02-18-2010, 09:09 PM   #22
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two-niner: Sorry you seem to think that well written and fact filled posts are "crap".

As to your last question, I think Newmar for one, is only running part-time because they have more capacity than orders. It was not long ago they completely stopped production to give "orders" time to catch up with production. In effect, they "created" a back log by doing so, and apparently that allows for better "efficiency".

Tiffin dealers are being told that orders for "stock" coaches will take a back seat to orders for "sold" (buyer ordered) coaches, and that means there are very few coaches remaining in dealer inventories around the country.

Yes, I believe there are several coach builders who would love to have Tiffin's order backlog. In most "assembly" processes, a backlog is a good thing because it helps plan out the materials flow and allows "just in time" delivery to help control costs.
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Old 02-19-2010, 12:56 PM   #23
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We have been to several dealers in the past two months. I can add a couple of tid-bits of information. Not sure what this says but while at North Trails in Ft Myers we were told they sold zero units at the Tampa Super show last year and 22 this year and currently very busy with new deliveries. (ask a mechanic not a salesman)
While at Lazy Days earlier this week we were third in line to look at the one and only new Tiffin Phaeton on the lot. Their used inventory is way short of normal for all major brands including Newmar and Tiffin.
Camping World next door to Lazy Days is able to take in service work on the spot or next day. NO WAITING.
What's all that mean? I don't know. Just thought it was worth reporting. Enjoy....!
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Old 02-19-2010, 02:33 PM   #24
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I can "prove" Bob Tiffin runs a lousy business - I'll just hop on over to the global warming gurus, and borrow their rubber yardstick.

I wish I had Bob's lousy business sense. And his reputation.
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Old 02-19-2010, 03:38 PM   #25
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Gratefully, this is my last post on lack of product to sell.
Let's say you own an ice cream truck (they used to be in your neighborhood) and you are driving down the street ringing your bell. The children come running out to buy some ice cream. Sadly, you have none to sell. Can't be more basic than that?

EngineerMike: I do have some Cap and Trade you might be interested in???

Thanks guys, been a good discussion.

Kerry
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Old 02-19-2010, 05:19 PM   #26
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Gratefully, this is my last post on lack of product to sell.
Kerry
The thread was never about "lack of product to sell".
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Old 02-19-2010, 07:56 PM   #27
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Gratefully, this is my last post on lack of product to sell.
Let's say you own an ice cream truck (they used to be in your neighborhood) and you are driving down the street ringing your bell. The children come running out to buy some ice cream. Sadly, you have none to sell. Can't be more basic than that?

EngineerMike: I do have some Cap and Trade you might be interested in???

Thanks guys, been a good discussion.

Kerry
if the ice cream cones cost half a million and took a week to make and required parts from dozens of suppliers all with their own ideas about how much to increase their own production in the face of an economy that treads daily into areas the american economy has never been before then i'd say you have yourself a good analogy.

tiffin isn't making ice cream and i know you don't like the "ankle bone connected to the leg bone"-thing but this stuff IS connected whether you like it or not.

no business that wants to stay in business will commit millions of dollars to ramp up production in the face of complete uncertainty. the strong demand for tiffin coaches today may be looked at as a bubble from tomorrow's vantage point. until the economy "proves" itself--and that may take years based upon what's gone on over the past 2 years--most business would rather have a backlog of orders than inventory they can't sell.
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Old 02-20-2010, 06:42 AM   #28
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...no business that wants to stay in business will commit millions of dollars to ramp up production in the face of complete uncertainty. the strong demand for tiffin coaches today may be looked at as a bubble from tomorrow's vantage point. until the economy "proves" itself--and that may take years based upon what's gone on over the past 2 years--most business would rather have a backlog of orders than inventory they can't sell.
Now THAT'S Business 101. Amen!
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