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Old 05-26-2014, 11:50 AM   #1
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Phaeton electrical problem.

I have been having an electrical issue with our 2010 Phaeton 40QTH. After I turn the key off, the transmission panel is still lit up, if I had the engine running it stays running after I turn the key off. The only way to get it to turn off is to go to the engine battery compartment and turn off the disconnect. When the disconnect is turned back on everything is good, till the next time the key is operated. I have disconnected the ignition switch and it makes no difference, so that rules out the switch. Also I have noticed that sometimes the drivers side slides will not operate, other times they are fine. The slides on the drivers side only operate with the ignition key on, whereas the slides on the passenger side will operate no matter whether the ignition key is on or off. They slides on the drivers side only operating with the key on has always been that way since I have owned it. the intermittent operation and ignition staying on issue has only recently appeared. I am suspecting a solenoid feeding the power to be the culprit but wondering if anyone has experienced a similar issue. There are no electrical diagrams in the manuals so it is tough to troubleshoot.
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Old 05-27-2014, 04:10 AM   #2
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Check grounds on starter. Sounds silly, but I had the exact problem with mine after changing out the original starter which had gone bad. Once started, would not shut off until I removed all battery power. Hook them back up, no lights on, trans shiftpad off, etc.. all until you start it just once then everything would stay running after shutting the key off. Found out I had inadvertently left off one ground going to the starter which got pushed out of the way and I didn't see it when installing the new starter. I realize you haven't probably changed anything recently but it's certainly worth investigating all your grounds at the batteries and chassis side.
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Old 05-28-2014, 07:10 AM   #3
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Powerglide or Freightliner chassis? Depending on what you have, call the chassis manufacturer and get this resolved. For Powerglide you would call Tiffin and ask for Gary Harris who is the Powerglide Chassis manager.
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Old 05-28-2014, 09:31 AM   #4
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I have the freightliner chassis. I was thinking a solenoid was bad but yes a ground could be the problem as the power could find ground through another source and cause a solenoid to stay active. I had checked the solenoids for chassis power at the back of the bus but nothing. As soon as I get it back home I will have to get under and check grounds. I had to park it elsewhere while I am getting some concrete and paving replaced. Maybe I should contact Tiffin and see if I can get electrical diagrams as it would make life easier.
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Old 06-19-2014, 05:05 PM   #5
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Well I have it back home. Have checked all the connections at the starter as well as grounds. Everything seems good. Driving me nuts. I notice whenever I turn the disconnect off and then back on there is a buzzing comes from the module above the starter, on the side of the motor. Don't know if it ever did this before as I never had to turn the disconnect off till this issue with not shutting off began. Worst thing is I am about 5 or 6 hours from the closest dealer, hence would like to try and figure it out here.
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Old 06-19-2014, 05:27 PM   #6
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Have you called Freightliner's help desk? 1-800-FTL-HELP (1-800-385-4357).

You might try calling Tiffin too.

It's normal for the DS slides to only operate with the key in the on position while the PS slide operate without a key.

Or.... listen to the solenoids on the rear electric compartment where the charging and slide solenoids are while someone turns the battery disconnect on & off. Maybe a solenoid is getting hung up.

Or... gently tap the solenoids when the key is off but the engine is still running (again, maybe one of them is getting stuck).
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Old 07-18-2014, 05:11 PM   #7
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Still digging for this problem. I got some wiring and component locations from Freightliner. All relays test good, this is getting to me. It also drains the chassis batteries if the disconnect isn't off. Sent two emails to Tiffin but they don't seem willing to offer any insight, which is very disappointing considering it's likely going to be a wayward screw through a harness when I eventually track it down. Very low miles on this unit. Will have to find the problem circuit and run some jumpers to try and locate. I,m certainly learning my way round but the wiring is a real jungle.
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Old 07-18-2014, 05:22 PM   #8
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The Allison control module (TCM) will have 2 seperate power sources, 1 for operation and 1 for memory retention, and of course an ignition trigger to wake it up when you turn the ignition on. 1 of those sources for memory retention to it will not be run thru any disconnect switch at all.. Using the information FL has sent you, perhaps knowing this can help you trace in a different area you've not looked into yet.
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Old 07-18-2014, 07:23 PM   #9
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Phaeton elect. Problem

It sounds to me like it is the ignition relay not opening when you turn the key off. Should be in the engine run bay probably front LH under the driver,s seat.
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Old 07-19-2014, 04:41 AM   #10
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Good ideas posted here but I suggest you go to www.tiffinrvnetwork.com because there are a couple of guys who have basically taken their coaches apart. They might have some good insight for you. It is free to join and also has a "library" of great documentation. At this point it is worth doing to keep your sanity.
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Old 07-19-2014, 09:00 AM   #11
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Thanks for the help guys. I too am thinking there is another relay somewhere as well. All the relays in the power distribution module are good, as are all the grounds. The engine control module and transmission module are apparently still getting power from somewhere when the key is off. I even went so far as to double check by removing each relay 1 at a time and it still is powered up. Will also check in at tiffin network, don't think I've looked there.
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Old 07-20-2014, 06:14 AM   #12
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This could be another item to look at... the Allison TCM/ECU uses 2 different power sources and a "trigger" as I mentioned in my previous post. However, the loss of the voltage from the "trigger" alone will not cause the transmission controls to power down as there is a bit of safety logic built into this. Here is how it works.....

When the "trigger" is detected from an ignition ON event the ECU/TCM/Shiftpad wakes up.

1- If it never detects any RPM from the transmission sensor on the torque converter and you shut the key off, the keypad will shut down on only the loss of the trigger voltage. Example scenario: You turn the key on to check gauges but never start the engine. Turn the key back off, trigger voltage is lost, no rpm was ever detected so the ECU/TCM/shiftpad turns off.

2- Once the ECU/TCM is turned on by the "trigger" voltage and it detects RPM it will continue to stay on until both the engine speed stops and the "Trigger" voltage is lost - The only way for it to shut down is for both conditions to be met, the loss of trigger voltage and the absence of any reading from the engine speed sensor in the transmission. For obvious safety reasons such as accidentally turning the key off while driving down the road, you wouldn't want the transmission ECU/TCM/shiftpad to power down otherwise you would go into Neutral automatically, which would mean loss of exhaust braking (if applicable), loss or inability to downshift manually to help slow down, etc etc....

So........ What happens if you turn the key on but don't start the engine, then turn the key off? Does the shiftpad stay lit? If so, then the wiring to the engine speed sensor or the sensor itself in the transmission is certainly worth investigating in your scenario.

It may be worthwhile to have an Allison shop hook up their DOC program to your ECU/TCM and see if your transmission's engine speed sensor is reading erroneously.
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Old 07-20-2014, 09:35 AM   #13
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So........ What happens if you turn the key on but don't start the engine, then turn the key off? Does the shiftpad stay lit? If so, then the wiring to the engine speed sensor or the sensor itself in the transmission is certainly worth investigating in your scenario.

It may be worthwhile to have an Allison shop hook up their DOC program to your ECU/TCM and see if your transmission's engine speed sensor is reading erroneously.[/QUOTE]

The shiftpad stays lit if I turn the key on and off without starting the engine. If I start the engine, when I turn the key off it stays on also as well as the engine stays running.
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Old 07-20-2014, 09:48 AM   #14
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Ok, then your transmission speed sensor or wiring to it is not the problem.. now back to your original investigation of the entire ignition circuit.... ugh.
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