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Old 01-18-2017, 11:26 AM   #1
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BCC and adding another solenoid question

OK, for all the BCC experts out there.
I am adding a lithium battery bank (actually replacing my FLA bank). I would like to add a solenoid to disconnect the chassis alternator from charging the house bank.|
My thought was fairly simple. Add a solenoid after the chassis battery and before the BCC. It would be a manually operated solenoid with a simple SPST switch on the dash. The reason for this is you do not want to overcharge lithium batteries. The lithium will be charged on a normal basis from solar panels on the roof (960w). I would almost always have the solenoid disconnecting the 2 systems (house and chassis). Periodically would open it to keep the chassis charged if I am in any one place for an extended period of time. And also if I were driving and it happened to be overly cloudy would be another time to have the charging of the house take place.
Solenoids and the such are not my expertise. I am trying to figure out the best design with the least voltage draw to keep the systems disconnected. Looking for solenoids makes me realize there are many different types. I know I want a 12v, continuous duty, probably 150A although 100A would suffice, I believe. I am not positive of the F53 alt output. Then there are latching type, insulated, and probably other things I haven't seen yet.
Then there is also the switch. I think I want a SPST lighted (when the systems are disconnected) switch. The lighted part is so I know there are disconnected.
Suggestions, comments, thoughts about my initial simplistic design? Am I missing something?
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Old 01-18-2017, 08:33 PM   #2
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If the '16 Bounder uses the RV-CP BCC like the older ones did, your solution will not work. In the older BCC's, that connection to/from the chassis battery was required for much more than just a charge path between 12V systems.

I mention the above because I've been told that there are major changes, from the past, to the BCC arrangements in the newer Bounders.

In either case, placement of your added solenoid and/or switch would be more effective in a position that would prevent the BIRD function from activating the existing Isolator/Charge solenoid.

Interrupting the activation of the existing solenoid can be done with a simple switch, since it does not have to be a heavy current carrying device.

Do you have a drawing/schematic of your BCC?
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Old 01-18-2017, 08:51 PM   #3
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You could just inturupt the activation wire that goes to the isolation solenoid that is there now.

Remove it from the solenoid and add the wires from your on/off switch in series.

With the switch open ( off ), the isolator solenoid will not be powered and will not actavate the circuit. There will be no house battery charging until you manually connect ( switch on ) the circuit.

Another expensive option, I've read about, is to disable the isolation system, and use a MPPT controller, from your chassis battery, to your lithium battery.

With that, you can set the controller to your specific settings, as you do with the solar input.
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Old 01-18-2017, 10:32 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinboat View Post
You could just inturupt the activation wire that goes to the isolation solenoid that is there now.

Remove it from the solenoid and add the wires from your on/off switch in series.

With the switch open ( off ), the isolator solenoid will not be powered and will not actavate the circuit. There will be no house battery charging until you manually connect ( switch on ) the circuit.
It might be preferable to interrupt the chassis input signal to the BIRD input rather than interrupting the output signal to the solenoid. This would allow the converter/charger/solar to activate the solenoid to charge the chassis battery without the need to close the switch. Just a thought.

FOR The OP.........
Locate the one wire connector P-15 on your BCC board. Open this connection or cut the wire and splice your switch in this line. With the switch open, the chassis cannot attempt to charge your house batteries. Your house battery charge circuits will still automatically charge the chassis battery. If you need diagrams to show the circuits in question, just ask.
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Old 01-19-2017, 04:17 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Bounder View Post
If the '16 Bounder uses the RV-CP BCC like the older ones did, your solution will not work. In the older BCC's, that connection to/from the chassis battery was required for much more than just a charge path between 12V systems.

I mention the above because I've been told that there are major changes, from the past, to the BCC arrangements in the newer Bounders.

In either case, placement of your added solenoid and/or switch would be more effective in a position that would prevent the BIRD function from activating the existing Isolator/Charge solenoid.

Interrupting the activation of the existing solenoid can be done with a simple switch, since it does not have to be a heavy current carrying device.

Do you have a drawing/schematic of your BCC?
Attached pics and the schematic. It is a gas coach. Also saw the posts after the above. I'll look at that in that reference. I do believe what I have is the same as earlier models but a newer revision.
The power for the slides and jacks do run thru the BCC. A bunch of other chassis things too. Need to think about that too. Thanks for the quick replies.
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Old 01-19-2017, 04:23 AM   #6
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Here's a few schematics I had .


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Old 01-19-2017, 05:01 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Old Bounder View Post
It might be preferable to interrupt the chassis input signal to the BIRD input rather than interrupting the output signal to the solenoid. This would allow the converter/charger/solar to activate the solenoid to charge the chassis battery without the need to close the switch. Just a thought..
You method does makes more sense than mine.

That's as long as the BIRD doesn't need " that " signal for any other funtions. I'm not familiar with all that it does.
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Old 01-19-2017, 07:17 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Bounder View Post
It might be preferable to interrupt the chassis input signal to the BIRD input rather than interrupting the output signal to the solenoid. This would allow the converter/charger/solar to activate the solenoid to charge the chassis battery without the need to close the switch. Just a thought.

FOR The OP.........
Locate the one wire connector P-15 on your BCC board. Open this connection or cut the wire and splice your switch in this line. With the switch open, the chassis cannot attempt to charge your house batteries. Your house battery charge circuits will still automatically charge the chassis battery. If you need diagrams to show the circuits in question, just ask.
Old Bounder,
Hmmm, ok, sounds simpler than my approach. I like simple.
I am learning. Let me see if I understand.
Basically, the BIRD determines the criteria to activate the solenoid to connect the coach and house batteries from the alt. So, if we interrupt that signal the solenoid will remain closed. This solenoid is what joins the chassis and coach for charging in that direction only. There is a diode that will allow current to flow in the opposite direction (coach to chassis). That all sounds good if I understand it correctly.
The confusing part to me is that P15 looks like it actually carries the current and not just energizes the solenoid? Or does it do both? I don't see any other wires connecting to the solenoid on the schematics.
I thought a solenoid will have 2 circuits, one energizes the solenoid the other actually carries the large current for a separate circuit - in this case that would be the current from the chassis to the coach batteries.
In the above reply you reference interrupting the chassis signal to the BIRD. That is not P15 though, correct?
For reference I have a CB115 Rev P. Also, I note the last fuse at the bottom right of the board indicates "ISO RELAY". It's a 3A fuse.
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Old 01-19-2017, 09:05 AM   #9
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Old Bounder,
Hmmm, ok, sounds simpler than my approach. I like simple.
I am learning. Let me see if I understand.
Basically, the BIRD determines the criteria to activate the solenoid to connect the coach and house batteries from the alt. So, if we interrupt that signal the solenoid will remain closed. This solenoid is what joins the chassis and coach for charging in that direction only. There is a diode that will allow current to flow in the opposite direction (coach to chassis). That all sounds good if I understand it correctly.
The confusing part to me is that P15 looks like it actually carries the current and not just energizes the solenoid? Or does it do both? I don't see any other wires connecting to the solenoid on the schematics.
I thought a solenoid will have 2 circuits, one energizes the solenoid the other actually carries the large current for a separate circuit - in this case that would be the current from the chassis to the coach batteries.
In the above reply you reference interrupting the chassis signal to the BIRD. That is not P15 though, correct?
For reference I have a CB115 Rev P. Also, I note the last fuse at the bottom right of the board indicates "ISO RELAY". It's a 3A fuse.
You are correct. P-15 is NOT the point that you want to interrupt. The diagram provided with the level-P circuit board is not a correct point-to-point schematic, but simply a logic diagram, (it does not show the BIRD activation signal passing through the IGNITION relay, as it actually does).

Result, is that the access to a convenient point for your switch is going to be more difficult to achieve.

Installing the switch at the solenoid pick coil connection ( as Twinboat suggested ) appears to be the easiest.

Here is a copy of the diagrams supplied for the Release-P board for your reference.

Sorry for the previous confusion I may have caused.
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Old 01-19-2017, 11:05 AM   #10
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You could just inturupt the activation wire that goes to the isolation solenoid that is there now.

Remove it from the solenoid and add the wires from your on/off switch in series.

With the switch open ( off ), the isolator solenoid will not be powered and will not actavate the circuit. There will be no house battery charging until you manually connect ( switch on ) the circuit.
Another expensive option, I've read about, is to disable the isolation system, and use a MPPT controller, from your chassis battery, to your lithium battery.
With that, you can set the controller to your specific settings, as you do with the solar input.
OK, back to this post. I think this is the one Old Bounder is referring to.
The MPPT controller is off the table for sure. I'll leave that to the side for now.
My question goes back to my earlier post and question.
It looks like the Aux Start Charging Relay is the circuit to focus on. Per the schematics I have (Thanks Old Bounder for the updated clearer documents) I don't see a circuit going to the solenoid to open and close the solenoid (I think Old Bounder refers to this as the "Pick Coil"). I only see the connections to/from the coach and chassis batteries via P15, P8 and P7. I'm not in front of the coach and won't be until Saturday night. It would be pretty easy to look at the solenoid and trace wires if they exist. I think the solenoid HAS to have this circuit to open and close the solenoid, correct?
Much appreciate all the info provided. Learning alot. I always consider it a good day when I learn something new!
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Old 01-19-2017, 12:06 PM   #11
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The isolation solenoid has 2 small wires on it. The solenoids are normally open, so removing one or the other wire, and it will not close.

The BIRD, IRD or boost switch, sends power to it, and it closes the large contacts, to interconnect the battery banks.

Either small wire is where I suggested a switch. You break the + feed or the - ( ground ) and it won't activate.

If you place your switch on the ground side, a short to ground, in your wiring would only cause it to work normal.

If you switch the hot side, a short will blow a fuse. That may be better then overcharging you batteries.
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Old 01-19-2017, 12:23 PM   #12
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OK, back to this post. I think this is the one Old Bounder is referring to.
The MPPT controller is off the table for sure. I'll leave that to the side for now.
My question goes back to my earlier post and question.
It looks like the Aux Start Charging Relay is the circuit to focus on. Per the schematics I have (Thanks Old Bounder for the updated clearer documents) I don't see a circuit going to the solenoid to open and close the solenoid (I think Old Bounder refers to this as the "Pick Coil"). I only see the connections to/from the coach and chassis batteries via P15, P8 and P7. I'm not in front of the coach and won't be until Saturday night. It would be pretty easy to look at the solenoid and trace wires if they exist. I think the solenoid HAS to have this circuit to open and close the solenoid, correct?
Much appreciate all the info provided. Learning alot. I always consider it a good day when I learn something new!
Look at fig-7 in the diagrams that I linked you to. The solenoid in question is shown at the bottom of the pag between the chassis and coach batteries. This solenoid is often referred to as the Isolator, the aux-start and/or the charge solenoid, because it performs all three functions.

The solenoid is activated through F-22 from the detailed voltage sensing circuits represented by Q3 on the diagram.

As stated earlier the actual connections to the input to Q3 are not as simplistic as shown on that diagram. The chassis input is derived from the ignition signal via land patterns on the board. Not shown on the diagram and difficult to isolate and access, to say the least.
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