Bounder: Black Water Issue

[Bajanbounder]

2012 Bounder 35 K... My vacuflush system has developed a leak somewhere in the flush line and close to the black water tank. When flushing with solids & liquids, running liquids are dripping from the top of the tank area. While the system still works the vacuflush is staying Red. I have to turn the switch off. While I can see and have access to the actual pump I cant find access beyond the pump where the line goes to The Black tank. Can access be made from anywhere else, ie; making a larger opening under the bed ? Any suggestions. It may be something as simple as a loose hose clamp, but I cant get at them.
PS: Fleetwood has sent me all the specs, but little to help in finding a way to the top of the Black Tank.

Dave A

[SarahW]

Howdy, Dave. Sorry to hear of your VacuFlush woes. I have obsessed about accessing those VacuFlush mechanisms since we had the elevation-related pump problem last year. I will be very interested if anyone has had to cut larger access portals under the bed to get to the pump.

I recall Bounder owner JBP posted this a while back, so maybe he will see your thread and let you know how they made his repair...

Originally Posted by JBP

The pump seals failed at an elevation of 6900 feet. We return home with no toilets. We have a 2014 35K bath & 1/2. I was able to get eyes on the pump and had the wife run it to confirm. What a mess. Sewage all over the black water tank, gas tank, and into the second to the last basement storage on the passenger side. This is were the cable goes through the wall of that storage compartment from the generator. I washed the area down with a hose and came home to KC as fast as I could.
Talked to dealer and Fleetwood. Fleetwood had me call the pump manufacture. They confirmed that the pumps would run longer at higher altitude. They were very surprised that the seals failed.
Fleetwood was very helpful and sent me 20 pages of cad drawings of the pluming systems for my coach. I am a retired mechanical drafter so seeing the system and understanding it helps.
From what I understand this is unusual for these seals to fail.
I bought the coach used and on our first trip I noticed that the pump ran for extended periods of time after flushing. Up to 10 min. I was sure this was not right and contacted the dealer and Fleetwood. They confirmed what I though and found the seals in the toilets were slowly leaking. They fixed all under warranty.
I think that this contributed to the seals failing.
This is just to advice all that this can happen.
I was told by the pump manufacturer that the pump cost was about $150.00 plus tax and shipping.
As some have observed this is not easy to get to. I am not looking forward to getting the bill.
I don't have a solution.

Good luck, Dave...and be sure to post follow-ups when you have a solution. I know this is something many of us will experience sooner or later with these systems.

[WOODYDEL]

I will start off my post with a couple of suggestions.

Do not bother attempting to reach the pump via under the bed. You'll me wasting your time.

Do not bother attempting access via the small compartment where your surge guard is located. My shoulders don't even fit and my or your neck is not 3 feet long. You'll be wasting your time.

Do not cut the floor to reach the pump. You'll regret this if you make that attempt.

If you need to shed a few pounds, you'll never make it to the access provided.

This is the BIG ONE.


Do the maintenance on your system as stated in the manual. You will save yourself the grief of swimming in poo once the pump fails.


Being Woody, I always include pictures. The Vacuflush system on Fleetwood Bounder demystified. Where no one seems to want to go.



This will give you an idea of how small the opening to the pump is:





This is what you look like attemping to enter the hole...ha.






This is the back side of the pump. Notice the clamp. That's how you disconnect the line coming from your toilet to the vacuflush vacuum tank. Notice the gold bolt. There are two. One on each side. You loosen this side and remove the opposite side. Two screws hold the pump to the floor. You'll see those later.
While you are looking at that pipe, think about what is going to happen if the system fails and you disconnect that line. Way back the "engineers" told me to raise the front of the coach to let it flow to the back. I'm not kidding.


Notice too how the electric cables have been conveniently snaked through the plumbing.






Pump screw to floor. Two must be removed. That's four screws/bolts to take out the tank and pump.





This is the closest side to you looking through the access hole. Notice the two clamps on the flex line. This line goes to the black tank. Once you remove the two bolts, two screws and three clamps the pump is free to remove but first the electrical connections.





Overall view of the system looking through the access hole. Boy, that hole looks huge...ha.





Far side of pump up close where the toilet pipe enters the vacuflush tank. Notice electrical connector. There are a couple connectors to disconnect and one more in front .





The ridiculous access port next to surge guard.






Here you see the black tank fitting where it enters the tank. You see the white pipe under the bed storage area coming from the toilet. You will see something else interesting and it surprised me. That white fitting with two wires coming out to the pump. That's your FULL TANK SWITCH and once that connector is separated your vacuflush can be removed for service and MAINTENANCE.






My next post will show you what I'm doing about the crummy access to this pump. This will allow me to let my trained monkey, who can fit inside this space, have his freedom. Your service person will kiss you if you do my fix. Pictures of that later.

You will like my solution. For those of you who think someone else will be stuck messing with this pump (this includes my wife), when you are in the real boonies and this thing fails you will be wishing to have paid attention to this nasty subject.

[Bajanbounder]

Thanks Woody......This is like winning a lottery. Just what I was looking for.
I plan the removal just as you described within the next week. I also plan a complete rebuild as my unit is 3 years old. I will replace all of the suggested parts by Sealand. I am also seriously considering replacing the the existing pump with the newer Whisper pump and accompanying suggested parts. The old pump can remain as a back up part if necessary.
I am hoping that your future post will include re-locating the whole pump, tank and lines to position outside of the current opening and make future service rather easy.
Your pictures are excellent and I look forward to any new posts and suggestions. Time is currently on my side as my next outing is not for a couple of months.
I am sure Sarah will be watching this post also, as her concerns about "Vacuflush" are similar to mine.
Thanks again,
Dave A

PS: All of the experts keep reassuring me that "The Sealand Vacuflush" is one of the best available systems for RV's and Boats. It is the location that sucks.

[SarahW]

Originally Posted by Bajanbounder

Thanks Woody......This is like winning a lottery. Just what I was looking for.
I plan the removal just as you described within the next week. I also plan a complete rebuild as my unit is 3 years old. I will replace all of the suggested parts by Sealand. I am also seriously considering replacing the the existing pump with the newer Whisper pump and accompanying suggested parts. The old pump can remain as a back up part if necessary.
I am hoping that your future post will include re-locating the whole pump, tank and lines to position outside of the current opening and make future service rather easy.
Your pictures are excellent and I look forward to any new posts and suggestions. Time is currently on my side as my next outing is not for a couple of months.
I am sure Sarah will be watching this post also, as her concerns about "Vacuflush" are similar to mine.
Thanks again,
Dave A

PS: All of the experts keep reassuring me that "The Sealand Vacuflush" is one of the best available systems for RV's and Boats. It is the location that sucks.

I totally agree! I am extremely interested in creating a better access area and will be watching for Woody's resolution!! GO WOODY!! My only concern is that his Bounder is a 2014 33C, so I wonder if things were moved around between our 2012 models and his. (Like, our Bounder didn't come with a SurgeGuard. )

Thanks for all the great pics, Woody. I'd really like to know how you got those!! We have a few pathetic cell phone pics that were made via the small access panel, but they are practically worthless.

[z3406]

My 2014 35K is headed to the factory next week for some repairs. The fresh water and waste water systems are frankly aggravating for a coach of this price point. Woody your pics of the vacuflush are enlightening especially since the factory schematic Fleetwood sent me says that all the vacuflush system connections are to be double clamped. In your pics I only see one clamp at each connection. Another thing the Dometic /Sealand documentation I have says the system should maintain vacuum for 3 hours before the pump recycles mine recycles every 50 minutes or so. I'm inclined to think that the flapper valves before and after the pump may not be working properly on my coach, We'll see what Fleetwood comes up with.

[jwmaustin]

Originally Posted by z3406

My 2014 35K is headed to the factory next week for some repairs. The fresh water and waste water systems are frankly aggravating for a coach of this price point. Woody your pics of the vacuflush are enlightening especially since the factory schematic Fleetwood sent me says that all the vacuflush system connections are to be double clamped. In your pics I only see one clamp at each connection. Another thing the Dometic /Sealand documentation I have says the system should maintain vacuum for 3 hours before the pump recycles mine recycles every 50 minutes or so. I'm inclined to think that the flapper valves before and after the pump may not be working properly on my coach, We'll see what Fleetwood comes up with.

Hey
We are at the factory this Tuesday. Hope we can meet up and compare notes. I'm going for a list of things but primary is water line to icemaker problem AGAIN.

Bill

[Bajanbounder]

Some questions for Woody.....
When the 2 screws and bolts are removed, will that allow the entire pump, etc ; to move closer to the opening where your elbows are located in the pictures ? (I am a big man and could comfortably work in that area.)
Will the wiring harness be long enough to accommodate that move ?
Are all of the wiring harnesses plug in type or will I have to cut and refit with plugs ?
If the White Flex hose (6" with clamps) were lengthened to 18 " would this permit reinstallation on a base where your elbows are sitting in the picture to make it easy for future work?
Will the White hose from the toilets also have to be lengthened to accomplish the above move ?
Thanks in advance for any additional comment and suggestions.
Today I made access to the pump, and "phew" what a mess. It appears that in and around the pump housing and area is where my leak is. I was able to hose matters down.
Pump removal for another day.....It was over 90 degrees today.

Dave A

[SarahW]

Originally Posted by SarahW

... our Bounder didn't come with a SurgeGuard.

OK. DUH. When I see "Surge Guard", I think of surge protection. I just realized that the transfer switch in our Bounder is a Surge Guard 41260. So. Nevermind.

[WOODYDEL]

It will take another couple days to post pictures of the access hole. Hint: where you see me in the picture is where the access hole is located underneath me.

Extending the pipes is not a problem. The electric connections are too short. For freeze protection the unit must be in the floor with the access hole closed.

Taking pictures only required much squeezing and blindly stretching my arms with camera in hand. Had to see what needed to be loosened to move the unit. Maintenance cannot be done in that space. That's why it isn't done. Out of sight, out of mind. I don't see the nut to turn that loosened a clogged pump which gets me to the next point.

These are not sewage pumps. They should only be called vacuum generators. When you flush, the atmosphere PUSHES the waste all the way to the black tank. That's why you need to hold the pedal down for at least three seconds. It takes the atmosphere that long to travel the length of the pipes replacing the vacuum generated by the system. If you cut the time holding the toilet valve open the waste does not make it to the tank. That's how it works. That word PUMP is what is wrongly used. Which leads me to the next fiasco.

If you have TWO toilets, you are supposed to have TWO "pumps". Why are people here with 35K's only talking about ONE "pump"? I have one toilet in my 33C. Sealand clearly states that on our type systems one pump for one toilet, two pumps for two toilets etc. Why? Because the simultaneous use of two toilets will not allow the atmosphere to push both toilet line contents through the vacuum pump. The pump is plumbed the same size as one toilet waste pipe. Two pipes having their contents forced through one pipe on the vacuum pump makes no sense. You can call Sealand yourselves to test my statement. I have already done so attempting to prove myself wrong.

This elevation problem has got to be related to atmospheric pressure. I'm thinking, the higher you go, the longer the pedal stays down. There has to be less PUSH at higher elevations.

Almost forgot about what I just read concerning cleaning up the mess left behind. Raise the front of the coach manually with your jacks before hosing out the area. I mentioned this earlier as the ridiculous response from the "engineer". You don't want to spread the contagion throughout the area. It's not healthy and probably can't be disinfected completely. Plus there are a bunch of wires under there which flooding cannot do any good.

[SarahW]

Great info, Woody. Keep it comin'. By the way, which compartment is your access panel in? Is it still in the third (from rear) bay on the passenger side? (Sometimes Fleetwood has reconfigured stuff from one model year to the next.)

I agree that the 35K should have two pumps...or better yet, one of the toilets should be a gravity type so that the owner would have at least one toilet working if the vacuflush is inop. To me the ultimate mod on our 33C would be to convert the Vacuflush to a gravity toilet, but I understand relocating the black tank is no small feat.

Woody, where is the transfer switch on your 2014? I am looking at all our photos and I can't find a pic of ours. I guess I need to make some more photos when we get the rig out of storage. Thanks for your write up; this is going to be invaluable to many VacuFlush owners.

[WOODYDEL]

My vacuflush system runs for 30 seconds after I release the pedal. Seemed to be longer without looking at a watch. Once vacuum has been achieved I have never heard the system cycle to restore vacuum on its own. I park my coach out back plugged in always and the vacuum has always been maintained. Before parking I partially fill the toilet 3 times about 1/2 to 2/3 full and flush to clear out debris in the pipes and the pump. Then about once a month, if it is parked that long, I will flush with clean water again to exercise the system. Watch, I just jinxed myself.


I'm thinking to isolate the vacuflush from the floor where it is mounted solidly with screws and bolts. The solid mounting can only aggravate the sound generated by the system. I found motor isolators which would not raise the unit by very much.


　

[rapid rick]

[ quote]
These are not sewage pumps. They should only be called vacuum generators. When you flush, the atmosphere PUSHES the waste all the way to the black tank. That's why you need to hold the pedal down for at least three seconds. It takes the atmosphere that long to travel the length of the pipes replacing the vacuum generated by the system. If you cut the time holding the toilet valve open the waste does not make it to the tank. That's how it works. That word PUMP is what is wrongly used. Which leads me to the next fiasco.

If you have TWO toilets, you are supposed to have TWO "pumps". Why are people here with 35K's only talking about ONE "pump"? I have one toilet in my 33C. Sealand clearly states that on our type systems one pump for one toilet, two pumps for two toilets etc. Why? Because the simultaneous use of two toilets will not allow the atmosphere to push both toilet line contents through the vacuum pump. The pump is plumbed the same size as one toilet waste pipe. Two pipes having their contents forced through one pipe on the vacuum pump makes no sense. You can call Sealand yourselves to test my statement. I have already done so attempting to prove myself wrong.

This elevation problem has got to be related to atmospheric pressure. I'm thinking, the higher you go, the longer the pedal stays down. There has to be less PUSH at higher elevations.

Almost forgot about what I just read concerning cleaning up the mess left behind. Raise the front of the coach manually with your jacks before hosing out the area. I mentioned this earlier as the ridiculous response from the "engineer". You don't want to spread the contagion throughout the area. It's not healthy and probably can't be disinfected completely. Plus there are a bunch of wires under there which flooding cannot do any good.[/QUOTE]

woody,
on pages 13 and 15 you will find my flush the vacuflush conversion, my new location allows for easy cleanup,easy access,also as you stated the 35k is supposed to have 2 vaccum generators, fleetwood only installs 1,Im sure for cost cutting. The 10 lbs of vaccum is to bring the waste from the toilet to the vaccum generator,then the vaccum generator pushes the waste to the tank,it can pump waste up to 6 ft above the vaccum generator,and draw waste horizionally20 to 30 ft as per specs.I installed in line shut off valves below both toilets to isolate each toilet as necessary, I have not tried flushing both toilets at the same time, have not found it necessary as of yet, not sure I ever will, I do know I will not be adding a 2nd vaccum generator.We run water for a min of 5 to 8 seconds at every flush to help keep system clean. Good luck with your project, and most of all have fun while doing it,the rewards are many.

[Bajanbounder]

Thanks again.............I have confirmed that my 2012 35K has one "Low profile Vacuum Generator which includes one vacuum pump". This is all one unit and services both toilets. The hose from the Mid toilet is joined under the Bed by the hose from the rear toilet.(A 10" x 10" trap door under the bed allows access). A 1 1/2 inch "Y" joint with clamps is used, then the one line runs to the Vacuum Generator.
I should and can only use one toilet at a time, as the minute you flush one the Red light comes on immediately in the other.
I have rechecked my wiring harness and it would permit the entire Vacuum Generator to be rotated 45 degrees towards where your elbows are laying in the picture. I could then enclose that entire fixture. The rubber shocks that you plan seems like a great idea for noise reduction.
Keep the info coming as sooner or later we will have a system that relaxes the mind and makes repairs easier..........Hopefully Fleetwood will gave some consideration to users who make changes for the better.

Dave A