Bounder: My Poor Visibility Headlights

[tderonne]

I'll ask my buddy if he can do it for less than $400. Might have to charge something if there's an official report.

[Brian W]

Checked voltage at lamp with engine running and got 12.08 volts. Just that simple test indicates a reduction of 20% lighting intensity.

Then tested load drop as per Daniel Stern. Not good results. Only tested low beam on lamp closest to battery and voltage drop is 1.74.




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[MRUSA14]

The fix for that is to run the headlamp wires to a relay, and use the relay to run larger, shorter wiring runs to the battery. A great video was posted online showing how this is accomplished on a Beaver. I converted my Beaver based on this video and it make a major difference in brightness. I suggest you watch it and adapt the process to your coach:

YouTube has a 15 minute limit, so I broke it into two parts.

Part 1 is here: Brighter Headlights for Your Beaver Part 1 - YouTube

Part 2 is here: Brighter Headlights for Your Beaver Part 2 - YouTube

[tderonne]

Originally Posted by Brian W

....voltage drop is 1.74.

Very similar to my measurements on my '04. I was close to 2 volts.

I have an current F53 wiring diagram on it's way. I bet it hasn't changed.

You'll love the improvement you'll get with relays. Not that that is the total answer, or that Fleetwood is off the hook. Just that for a small amount of money you can get better lighting.

[Brian W]

Thanks for the relay information. This to me goes much deeper. I just got off the phone with CAPA, Certified Automotive Parts Association, and had a lengthy conversation with them. Quite frankly I am pissed off right now. I will post later what I found out in talking with them. Want to calm down before I do.


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[akeyzoo]

Let me guess... Fleetwood uses headlight assembly (like many other manufacturers) from modern passenger vehicles. HOWEVER, Fleetwood does not buy OEM headlamp assemblies, rather they use knock-offs, and that is the issue.

My rev uses a ford Contour assembly. The one the CAME ON THE COACH was a TYC brand, not FORD. Problem for me, not a lot of options when such an obscure and obsolete vehicle headlamp assembly was used.

Oh well, what do I win if I am right Brian?

Chris

[Brian W]

Originally Posted by akeyzoo

Let me guess... Fleetwood uses headlight assembly (like many other manufacturers) from modern passenger vehicles. HOWEVER, Fleetwood does not buy OEM headlamp assemblies, rather they use knock-offs, and that is the issue.

My rev uses a ford Contour assembly. The one the CAME ON THE COACH was a TYC brand, not FORD. Problem for me, not a lot of options when such an obscure and obsolete vehicle headlamp assembly was used.

Oh well, what do I win if I am right Brian?

Chris

Chris,

You are partially correct. Getting ready to eat some good Memphis BBQ and then get a haircut. Will be a big post later.

Brian


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[poppopc]

Originally Posted by waroland

I don't worry about my light output because I don't drive after dark.

XXXXXX2222222
At least I try not to!M!

[Brian W]

National Code of Ethics for Engineers, Rule 1 “Hold paramount the safety, health, and welfare of the public.”

Allied Specialty Vehicles (ASV) – “ASV companies define market expectations. Our corporate culture fosters an atmosphere of continuous improvement and operational excellence. From safety to performance to durability, we are constantly innovating to ensure our vehicles are the very best the industry has to offer.”

So ASV, with an Engineer for a CEO, believes in continuous improvement and safety huh? Let’s look at that then. Per the Certified Automotive Parts Association (CAPA) there are 3 types of headlamps

OEM – Original Equipment
CAPA Certified Aftermarket – Held to stringent standards in quality, fit, and meeting OEM standards.
Aftermarket – Everything else is held to the very high standard of……….self-certification

Now, here is the best part. The maker of my headlamps is DEPO, complete with a DOT/SAE stamp on the headlights and everything. Look up the number in the CAPA database and sure enough it’s listed as CAPA certified. But wait, it’s not quite that simple. As I learned today from a very nice and knowledgeable person at CAPA, the manufacturer actually makes 2 different runs of the same lights. One is CAPA certified and the other is held to the very high standard of self-certification. The only way to tell the difference is by looking for the CAPA seal that should be on the back of the headlamp assembly. Guess what my headlamp doesn’t have?

So my MH maker, you know the ones who are looking for continuous improvement and caring about my safety had three options when it came to the headlamps to use. They chose the bottom of the barrel. The difference I found in cost of CAPA certified vs non-certified was $23.00 per headlamp assembly. That’s right; to ensure my safety they chose to save a measly $46.00. Of course they probably get them a lot cheaper than I can so they probably saved even less. Just screams of innovation and safety. I asked CAPA what percentage of non-certified headlamps they estimated would fail a photometric test and they estimated over 50%. I asked where I could get my headlamps tested for proper optics and she gave me a company that does it. The only downside, for testing to FMVSS 108 standards the price is “a couple thousand dollars”. There goes 1 part of my research unless I can find a University to do it for me.

CAPA tested 2 aftermarket headlamp manufacturers’ products in 2004 using a goniophotometer to test to FMVSS 108 standards. The manufacturers were TCY and DEPO (The ones that make mine). Surprise, Surprise there was a 100 percent failure rate. Curious enough DEPO decided to get CAPA certified the very next year. Of course we don’t get their CAPA certified headlamps, we get the self-certified version. I have already posted Daniel Stern’s thoughts on these aftermarket headlamps, or as he calls them... junk.

If ASV was so concerned with safety why are they using a headlamp that was designed/engineered in 1998? Gotta love that 16 year old technology, very innovative indeed. I have 1.74 volts of voltage drop effectively removing 20% of the output of the lamp. I have to check my turn signals because FMVSS 108 also requires no more than a 0.8 voltage drop to the turn signals which are housed in my headlamp assembly. While I understand it’s a very small sample size, I find it amazing that not one person on this forum has said there headlights were great in there Bounder.

Said it before, and I will say it again. I LOVE my Bounder with the exception of the headlamps. For those that don’t drive at night it’s awesome you have that option, but we don’t always have that option. And even if we did, that’s no excuse for substandard safety equipment. For those that say the relays will fix the problem and it’s a cheap fix, I hear ya, but I am tired of fixing problems like this on new MH’s. While my issues have been minor so far, there are some I have fixed on my own, and the same with my last coach that had major issues. This is just not right and on this one I am drawing the proverbial line in the sand. I will next concentrate on drafting my letters to the different leadership of ASV and ARG and give them a chance to correctly fix my problem. If they don’t or can’t then I will proceed to fix the lights and take other actions I deem necessary. If all I get out of this is that Fleetwood improves their lighting systems on future models then I will feel that this has all been worth the effort.

Brian

[jwmaustin]

Brian
I think I've said my Bounder lights do appear better than yours and I still think that is true. I don't have the MH in a location to take a photo to show you but when I can I will.

The point is that I think there are possibly variations in the parts. Also others who don't have problems might not look for this posting. Doesn't change your plans I think but it might help in the engineering discussion to show thoroughness (I'm an engineer as well).

I am curious as to what is different from mine to yours.

Bill

[jwmaustin]

Here is what my headlight looks like. Does that help?

[Brian W]

JW,

This was your comment:

"Yeah I think that is similar to my 35K. Mine might be a little brighter but compared to my 4runner it's terrible. I'll be curious to see your solution."

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of satisfaction. I also acknowledge the very small sample size. However, I still find it more than coincidence that of,the six or seven late model Bounder owners that have posted on here, none of them have said the headlamps were,good. I would LOVE to find one so I could find,out the difference.

Your headlamp looks exactly like mine, which it should. My guess is our output is probably the same. I took those pictures using my cell phone with no flash. Also, since our headlamps have no stringent requirements to be met, variations could exist literally from light to light.

Brian


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[mojoracing]

Brian,jaw's headlights might seem a little bit better to him but to add another motorhome to the sample, you can add mine. I do 90% of my driving at night. (I get off late on saturday nights and we are usually in route to a race on sunday morning) I will take some pics and video of mine. They are much worse than yours. On another note, why settle for future improvements when what we have needs fixing? I think at a minimum they should be replaced with the certified version and rewired to have little or no voltage drop at the manufacturers expense.

[Brian W]

Mojo,

I absolutely agree. But I am trying to look at end game as well. In my estimate it would cost them about $250.00 dollars in parts to fix mine. Hell for 100 they could put in the relays to at least get the voltage acceptable.


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