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Old 05-24-2014, 09:07 PM   #1
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My Poor Visibility Headlights

I realize this subject has been brought up countless times on this forum and I have read most of them. I understand this issue appears to be widespread across all brands, so why am I choosing to bring it up here? Because I own a Fleetwood and I am working with them on this issue.

I would like to start by addressing those who will say just upgrade to HID lights, they are awesome. Well, number one that doesn't solve what I consider to be a safety issue of inadequate light as delivered on my MH and two, HID lights are illegal unless they are OEM. This is a quote from one of the leading HID conversion kit sellers on the web:

Are these bulbs Legal for highway use?
Everything we sell is not legal for use in the U.S. and they exceed the D.O.T.'s regulations for brightness and are labeled for "off road / show car use only." However, I have never witnessed the authorities remove a bulb to check for a D.O.T. sticker, have you? These laws are changing as many people feel it is unfair if you wish to save thirty thousand dollars and buy a car not made in Europe why should you have to live with crappy lights? Almost all cars made in the United States do not have optional HID lamps. Is this fair?

You have to dig really deep in their web site to find this information, and I love their justification for selling kits they know are being used illegally.

I have researched minimum low beam distances and high beam distances by state and while there are some differences they are close in requirements. The minimum for low beam is 150-200 feet. High beams 450-500 feet. This appears to be in direct correlation with stopping distances of cars on dry pavement traveling at 55 mph.

Here is a simple chart that shows stopping distance at 55 mph. It does not consider reaction time distance. Reaction time distance at 55 mph is 60 feet, so you have to add the 60 feet to get total stopping distance.

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I am choosing to use the bus as it is probably the closest to my MH in size and weight. With a stopping distance of 230 feet and reaction time distance of 60 feet, total stopping distance is 290 feet or more easily put 90 feet further than low beam lights are required to illuminate. To not overdrive your lights you would have to drive around 45 mph, assuming your lights properly illuminate to the minimum required distance.

I have read the Daniel Stern stuff, but it does not apply as my voltages and headlight alignment all checked out as good. Voltage at bulb 13.2, grounded properly, and proper alignment.

Here are my lights at night on low beam.

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On high beam

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My 2013 F-150 with halogen headlights

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As you can see, my truck gives good illumination using halogen lamps. So why are my MH lights so poor? It appears by reading on IRV2 that my headlights are from a Jeep that is over 10 years old technology.

When I notified Fleetwood of my concerns I was told they had only received one other complaint about the lights. How many on here have what they consider inadequate lights? I know it's more than 1. It appears most people just modify their lights with aftermarket bulbs or illegal conversion kits. I wonder how many would be satisfied if their new coach came with tube TV's? My guess is most would laugh at the old technology and demand better/newer technology. So why not demand the same with a safety item?

My plan is to call my contact at Fleetwood and show him my side by side pictures. Fleetwood has been awesome working with and at a minimum I am hoping they acknowledge they should be putting better lights on their products. If not mine, at least on their new products.

Sorry this was so long.

Brian




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Old 05-24-2014, 10:01 PM   #2
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I don't worry about my light output because I don't drive after dark.
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Old 05-25-2014, 02:30 AM   #3
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Brian
It looks like you summarized your experience here from what you wrote on the mods posting....good summary. I'd agree that the situation needs improved although I, personally, have found I go to FW for a few things and for others it's easier to just fix them. (I also just enjoy the tinkering). What year and model of Jeep did you conclude were the original headlight fixtures? I'd like to find a replacement bulb and try it out on my 35K.
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Old 05-25-2014, 06:24 AM   #4
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Quote:
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Brian
It looks like you summarized your experience here from what you wrote on the mods posting....good summary. I'd agree that the situation needs improved although I, personally, have found I go to FW for a few things and for others it's easier to just fix them. (I also just enjoy the tinkering). What year and model of Jeep did you conclude were the original headlight fixtures? I'd like to find a replacement bulb and try it out on my 35K.

I was trying to get everything in one area as not to derail the mods and upgrades thread. I am working on a few other things to highlight my point to Fleetwood. I agree with fixing certain things as I do the same. The reality is I will more than likely end up fixing this on my own also. I believe in another thread Mojoracing was told the 2014 35K housing was from a 2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee. The stamp on mine says HB4A and the Sylvania Silverstar bulbs are $40.00 a set. These seem to be the halogen bulbs people recommend.




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Old 05-25-2014, 06:30 AM   #5
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Brian,

You have an excellent illustration of a problem many of us have. On my 2001 DSDP it uses '96 F150 headlight units. When I purchased the MH 3 years ago, the headlights were glazed and foggy on the lenses and reflectors. The dealer replaced with new units that were clear but put out no light. My findings were the original '96 F150 were glass and the OEM from Newmar, original and current replacements are "affordable" plastic knockoffs that have extremely poor optics and no bulb would ever produce a good beam. I went with installing projector beams inside aftermarket units and am extremely happy. Another route which may be more cost effective and give better light is go to the originator of your unit (Jeep?) and see if you can get a truly quality certified factory unit not a low quality parts store replacement. Drive safe and enjoy!

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Old 05-25-2014, 10:39 AM   #6
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I was trying to get everything in one area as not to derail the mods and upgrades thread. I am working on a few other things to highlight my point to Fleetwood. I agree with fixing certain things as I do the same. The reality is I will more than likely end up fixing this on my own also. I believe in another thread Mojoracing was told the 2014 35K housing was from a 2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee. The stamp on mine says HB4A and the Sylvania Silverstar bulbs are $40.00 a set. These seem to be the halogen bulbs people recommend.
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I wonder if we have actual OEM Jeep headlight assemblies, or if we have a knockoff "parts store" equivalent? If they are the actual OEM, there's no reason to replace them with more of the same crap. We have owned several Jeeps and NONE have had this headlight issue, plus it seems like no matter which light assemblies RV owners have, the complaints are the same.

It goes without saying that our line-of-sight sitting high above the road causes some visual differences between a motorhome driver's seat and a regular vehicle. That said, there is no excuse for the lack of proper illumination to make driving SAFE, as Brian's photos illustrate.

If/when the RV manufacturers decide to address this problem will come too late for all of us, so we will have to find a solution on our own. I'm anxious to see what some of you come up with. I wonder if a retailer such as M4 might be of some help since they specialize in RV LED bulb replacement?
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Old 05-25-2014, 12:15 PM   #7
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I agree with you on headlight illumination. It seems to me that I have read a few discussions on this forum on this issue. My headlights were fading from sun exposure so I replaced them with projector type headlights. The difference was very noticeable. I really do not understand why Fleetwood would not just go to Hid lights and stop the discussion.

I put aftermarket Hid on my car and then compared the light pattern with my other car which had them stock. The light generated by both cars seemed to be very similar. The patterns were the same as was the projected distance. The real difference was that I can now see at night when driving. I would convert the coach but I seldom drive the coach at night. I think that the secret to the Hid conversion is to have projector housings.
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Old 05-25-2014, 12:22 PM   #8
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I really do not understand why Fleetwood would not just go to Hid lights and stop the discussion.
It's likely that they will at some future time, especially if other manufacturers make that change. The issue for all of us is what to do with ours now.
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Old 05-25-2014, 02:05 PM   #9
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Just got back from an automotive lighting company. For STREET LEGAL halogen projection headlights it would cost $700.00. I am going to do another lighting test tonight with the following subjects:

Semi tire tread in middle of road:

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Average size 10 year old with a height of 51 inches:

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I will also be scheduling a trip to Fleetwood for hopefully early July. I would like to do it earlier but have a trip to Cades Cove coming up shortly.


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Old 05-25-2014, 03:26 PM   #10
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I would like to do it earlier but have a trip to Cades Cove coming up shortly.


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Try to do your Smokey Mountain driving during daylight hours!!
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Old 05-25-2014, 03:29 PM   #11
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Try to do your Smokey Mountain driving during daylight hours!!

Without a doubt!


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Old 05-25-2014, 06:16 PM   #12
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Just an FYI to everyone, the lights in our (at least mine & Brian's)coaches is a 1999-2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee light housing. The new housing(no bulbs) on Ebay costs anywhere from $85-$150/pair depending on which configuration you go with.

Great write up Brian. Will try to get photos for you ASAP of what mine looks like with the new stuff.
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Old 05-25-2014, 07:19 PM   #13
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Brian - Just to illustrate, this is the kit I installed in DSDP. All in all I have about $400 and 4 hours work to get here. Very adequate lighting. I also have new Hella fog lights to fill close for those late night site dockings. Tom

http://imageshack.com/a/img191/8232/wg5m.jpg
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Old 05-25-2014, 07:43 PM   #14
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Brian - Just to illustrate, this is the kit I installed in DSDP. All in all I have about $400 and 4 hours work to get here. Very adequate lighting. I also have new Hella fog lights to fill close for those late night site dockings. Tom

http://imageshack.com/a/img191/8232/wg5m.jpg

I am out at my storage, aka lighting proving grounds waiting for it to get nice and dark. Are those halogen or HID projectors in your picture?

Just looked at a new American Eagle at our storage and it has projectors. Don't know if HID, LED, or Halogen. Guess if you pay enough you can have safe headlights😳


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