Bounder: Question regarding my Bounder which is in for warranty work

[Clayobx]

Sarah has a good idea! Motorhome magazine and FMCA both have specific editorials dedicated for just these issues. The large majority of folks that work thru this medium have successful results. All this cost is time and diligence. Again I wish you well.

[SarahW]

Originally Posted by Clayobx

Sarah has a good idea!

You don't have to sound so surprised, Clay!!!

[Clayobx]

Of course not. What exceptional In put you add to this forum. Kudos!!

[Alan_Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Brian W

We as consumers have allowed this. We make excuses like these things are houses on wheels being subjected to earthquakes every time we drive them. BS! My truck doesn't fall apart while driving it, even when off-road. Why? Because it was designed for those environments. I spent 18 years on ships in the Coast Guard that took a lot worse conditions than we put our MH's through and they didn't fall apart every time a big wave hit us. Why? Because they were designed for that environment. The fact is these MH manufacturers throw these things together as fast as they can and leave the consumer to deal with the problems.

In all fairness, those are poor comparisons. Your truck has a steel body bolted to a steel frame, with pretty much everything in the cab bolted, welded, or otherwise fastened to the body. As you say, it's designed to be driven. Similarly, your ships are literally TONS of steel plate welded together, with exposed wiring, pipes, cables, etc. designed for their environment. In contrast, a motorhome is a steel chassis on which is added (usually) an aluminum frame, and then a lot of wood and/or plastic walls, cabinets, etc. all put together with glue and staples. Who would want to buy a motorhome built to Coast Guard, or Navy, standards? How much would a motorhome weigh if it were built out of welded steel plates, with all steel cabinets, pipes, etc.?

Could the industry do better? Absolutely! But with the kind of perfection we all want I fear the resulting vehicle would be financially out of the reach of pretty much everyone.

[Brian W]

I certainly respect your opinion but disagree on the fairness of the comparisons. Well built things, regardless of what they are, are built with the operating environment taken into consideration. The most common comparison I see on here is a regular house. Houses aren't designed to move; ships, cars, and RV's are.

Not all ships are made of steel, my patrol boats were very thin steel hull with aluminum superstructures. Most new ships being built have false overheads and bulkheads with access panels to valves, junction boxes, etc. No exposed pipes, valves, wires, etc. The new F-150 is being made out of aluminum with guarantees of the same or better performance. In other words, it can be done if designed properly.

In using a ship as a comparison, everything that can move is bolted or welded to keep it from moving. Cabinets in RV's are mounted with a few screws. My last MH microwave almost fell from the cabinet due to it's poor mounting design. I could continue with water tanks that can't be filled all the way due to poor design, headlamps that don't function properly, and are hard to keep focused because they were an afterthought.

Look at some of the OP's problems. A couch that comes loose going down the road, flooring bubbling up, cabinets separating, shower cracked. How many of those could have been prevented with a better mounting or support system? They design things to be put together fast and get them on the dealers lot.

How many people when buying their first RV actually look at quality? My guess is they do what I did when I bought my first. Oh cool! 3 slides, 4 flat screen TV's, electronic awning. I believe the manufacturers are giving us exactly what we want, a lot of "stuff".

What if they only gave us 3 TV's and used the savings in weight and money on better quality carpet, headlights, solid mounting brackets, etc?

I personally believe it can be done without the consumer having to deal with what the OP is dealing with. Maybe it's time to focus less on glitz and more on quality assembly and parts. I don't think the OP is looking for perfection, just to have a new MH that doesn't fall apart while driving down the road, and to be treated fairly.





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[CJBROWN]

AFAIK it has always been like this with Fleetwood motorhomes. <shrug>

I had a 99 southwind. It was a decent coach but no slides so we traded it for the itasca in my sig. components and build quality was better but obviously assembled by monkeys - wires left hanging, stuff installed backwards, doors and slides that need adjustment, quite a list of stuff I did myself. The only thing the dealer did was to replace the wind sensor for the electric awning which worked for about a month and then quit again, never has worked. I give up.

Seems to me Fleetwood had gone through some recent growing pains as well - I know they quit building trailers, maybe a management change?

Some recent posts about Thor Palazzo here, lots of problems. But less on the up-models. I wonder if the higher end Fleetwoods are built better. The Bounder has kind of been a bread-and-butter for them for decades, great reputation especially for dry camping - big tanks, high CCC, etc.

[SarahW]

Originally Posted by CJBROWN

AFAIK it has always been like this with Fleetwood motorhomes. <shrug>

I believe Brian is referring to all motorhome manufacturers, not just Fleetwood. We looked at several brands before choosing our Bounder; NONE were superior in build quality.

I pulled out a kitchen drawer in a new Newmar and the bottom fell out of it. That was all I needed to see.

[Brian W]

I was absolutely talking about all brands. I am on my third brand and my Bounder by far is the best quality. With that said it has had it's problems also. Without another long winded post, all manufacturers need to do a better job in putting there products together.


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[CJBROWN]

Originally Posted by Brian W

I was absolutely talking about all brands. I am on my third brand and my Bounder by far is the best quality. With that said it has had it's problems also. Without another long winded post, all manufacturers need to do a better job in putting there products together.

I wasn't confused.

But really, what exactly would you say needs to be done differently in 'putting products together'?

What specific RV products would you say are put together better? Are better quality?

[Brian W]

Originally Posted by CJBROWN

I wasn't confused.

But really, what exactly would you say needs to be done differently in 'putting products together'?

What specific RV products would you say are put together better? Are better quality?

Never said you were confused, was confirming what Sarah said.

One of the benefits of being retired is I can go to RV dealerships and walk the lots. I do this every other Friday and just walk through units getting ideas, looking at quality, and in some cases dreaming. Like yourself I also read every section of this great forum. I have owned a Jayco, Forest River, and now Fleetwood. My mom just purchased a new Winnebago.

How would I put products together?

1. Shower - every shower I have had and my moms feel like there is no support. The OP and myself have had cracking problems with our showers. I had to watch as holes were punched in mine and 4 cans of foam inserted to provide adequate support. The OP had to have walls and cabinets taken out to get a new shower in. My mom is paranoid in her Winnebago that she is going to fall through.

2. Fake Wall- I have a fake wall between the bedroom and the toilet section of the master bathroom. The bottom moves all over the place. A simple piece of channel at the bottom would prevent the constant moving and flexing.

3. Carpet - We all know this is installed using as many staples as they can put in. Unfortunately due to speed being a priority instead of quality not all staples are put in properly as I cut my foot on one. I then spent time finding raised staples and pounding them down with a hammer. Missed one that my wife found last trip. How about using carpet adhesive? My guess is the time it takes to install and dry.

4. Linoleum Floors - again, maybe glued on the edges. Doesn't take long to find about bubbles being found on floors regardless of manufacturer. Why not glue all of it down?

5. Cabinet Installation - minimum screws/bolts needed to hold them up without taking into consideration the constant vibration these cabinets are taking. As I said earlier, almost lost a microwave from this when a simple bracket would have added extra support.

6. Headlamps - unlike a car where the headlamps and vehicle are designed to provide a nice snug fit, mine and many others are an afterthought. Mine are from a jeep and a bracket was made to hold them in place. No snug fit about it. I can not get anyone to adjust my headlamps. When I call and ask about having it done they ask whether it's a class C or A. As soon as I say "A" they say no. One said they would try it, but would not guarantee that they would stay aligned due to the way they are held in place. In other words they vibrate a lot and the design of the mounting brackets allows them to vibrate out of alignment.

7. Schwintek slide system - failed miserably on my last MH damaging the full wall slide to where it had to be replaced. The manufacturers that use this system tried to get by using the very minimum. Ask yourself why is Thor now adding a third rail on their new Palazzos?

I could go on, but hopefully this answers some of your questions on how I would improve "putting them together".

As far as quality, my headlamps cost Fleetwood no more than $80.00 for both. OEM would be $750.00. Great, they saved $670.00 (cost of a tv) but only one problem; I can't see at night because they are so bad. Several of us can't use our windshield wiper fluid because the pumps are the cheapest possible and have broken after only a few uses. Carpet that is the absolute cheapest and is fraying everywhere.

I am just as much to blame as anyone because I was blinded by the cool "stuff".

As far as better quality put together? Look at the Entegra board and their chirping air conditioners, awning lights not working, improper screws used on the roof, drawers flying open, etc, etc. those are 400k and up MH's. Look at the Botts blog on the Winnebago Tour they custom ordered and ended up refusing.

It has gotten so bad that my dealer has created a team that goes through every delivered coach when they arrive. They have refused deliveries due to the problems found upon arrival.

Wanna really have fun, go to a big show like Tampa or Hershey and walk through the display units and see handles falling off, bubbling linoleum, cracked tiles, interior trim falling off, doors that will not close, etc, etc. it's almost comical.

The fact is what is happening to the OP doesn't surprise me at all, and that's a shame.




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[CJBROWN]

Wow. I didn't realize it had gotten that bad out there. New RV's have always had some failure and build issues, but mostly they were minor and easy to fix. Seems the recession forced a new way of building for profits that resulted in poorer QC throughout the industry.

[jwmaustin]

Originally Posted by Brian W

Never said you were confused, was confirming what Sarah said.

One of the benefits of being retired is I can go to RV dealerships and walk the lots. I do this every other Friday and just walk through units getting ideas, looking at quality, and in some cases dreaming. Like yourself I also read every section of this great forum. I have owned a Jayco, Forest River, and now Fleetwood. My mom just purchased a new Winnebago.

How would I put products together?

1. Shower - every shower I have had and my moms feel like there is no support. The OP and myself have had cracking problems with our showers. I had to watch as holes were punched in mine and 4 cans of foam inserted to provide adequate support. The OP had to have walls and cabinets taken out to get a new shower in. My mom is paranoid in her Winnebago that she is going to fall through.

2. Fake Wall- I have a fake wall between the bedroom and the toilet section of the master bathroom. The bottom moves all over the place. A simple piece of channel at the bottom would prevent the constant moving and flexing.

3. Carpet - We all know this is installed using as many staples as they can put in. Unfortunately due to speed being a priority instead of quality not all staples are put in properly as I cut my foot on one. I then spent time finding raised staples and pounding them down with a hammer. Missed one that my wife found last trip. How about using carpet adhesive? My guess is the time it takes to install and dry.

4. Linoleum Floors - again, maybe glued on the edges. Doesn't take long to find about bubbles being found on floors regardless of manufacturer. Why not glue all of it down?

5. Cabinet Installation - minimum screws/bolts needed to hold them up without taking into consideration the constant vibration these cabinets are taking. As I said earlier, almost lost a microwave from this when a simple bracket would have added extra support.

6. Headlamps - unlike a car where the headlamps and vehicle are designed to provide a nice snug fit, mine and many others are an afterthought. Mine are from a jeep and a bracket was made to hold them in place. No snug fit about it. I can not get anyone to adjust my headlamps. When I call and ask about having it done they ask whether it's a class C or A. As soon as I say "A" they say no. One said they would try it, but would not guarantee that they would stay aligned due to the way they are held in place. In other words they vibrate a lot and the design of the mounting brackets allows them to vibrate out of alignment.

7. Schwintek slide system - failed miserably on my last MH damaging the full wall slide to where it had to be replaced. The manufacturers that use this system tried to get by using the very minimum. Ask yourself why is Thor now adding a third rail on their new Palazzos?

I could go on, but hopefully this answers some of your questions on how I would improve "putting them together".

As far as quality, my headlamps cost Fleetwood no more than $80.00 for both. OEM would be $750.00. Great, they saved $670.00 (cost of a tv) but only one problem; I can't see at night because they are so bad. Several of us can't use our windshield wiper fluid because the pumps are the cheapest possible and have broken after only a few uses. Carpet that is the absolute cheapest and is fraying everywhere.

I am just as much to blame as anyone because I was blinded by the cool "stuff".

As far as better quality put together? Look at the Entegra board and their chirping air conditioners, awning lights not working, improper screws used on the roof, drawers flying open, etc, etc. those are 400k and up MH's. Look at the Botts blog on the Winnebago Tour they custom ordered and ended up refusing.

It has gotten so bad that my dealer has created a team that goes through every delivered coach when they arrive. They have refused deliveries due to the problems found upon arrival.

Wanna really have fun, go to a big show like Tampa or Hershey and walk through the display units and see handles falling off, bubbling linoleum, cracked tiles, interior trim falling off, doors that will not close, etc, etc. it's almost comical.

The fact is what is happening to the OP doesn't surprise me at all, and that's a shame.




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Brian has it essentially correct. An earlier post added that some added costs would place the units out of our reach when it comes to buying. I think there is a happy medium .... add some costs carefully but keep the total down. Some of the things Brian mentions are "just good design" meaning they are one time costs that can be spread over all units. That takes some thought and planning. It also might put some manufacturers more in a mode of actually doing planning and engineering....good (speaking as an engineer LOL).

Bottom line is there are some good ideas to be incorporated by a lucky and creative manufacturer....I say lucky because that company will be in a pretty good selling position if they can stick with it. Creative because it needs done while holding the selling price down.

[WOODYDEL]

Hello all,


Today Steve Heim gave me a call back. I spoke with him concerning a previous resolved issue. I also mentioned some of the unhappiness some of you here are experiencing with your Fleetwood product. I let him know where to look here. He's extremely easy to speak with as he was last year with me. Maybe some light on the issues, which can be read here, by someone higher up might help. Good luck.

[Brian W]

I think it's several things. I know that qualified techs are near impossible to find, and it's resulting in long waits to get anything done at your dealership. I would love to know how many of the engineers at the manufacturers actually own an RV. If my reading is correct, after the recession the RV manufacturers that survived ramped up production without having enough trained builders resulting in poorly put together units. I know the RVIA has a program going where they are trying to address the lack of trained people.

One of the funniest/saddest things I have read on these forums is an owner who bought a MH, had the slide fall apart, the manufacturer stepped up and agreed to send him an entire new MH. The new one was wrecked delivering it. They then "upgraded"him to a different model. You would think after all of that the new unit would have been gone through with a fine tooth comb. But nope, leaking window, mold, screw penetrating the exterior fiberglass, more slide problems, paint problems, etc.






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