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Old 08-21-2014, 11:22 AM   #1
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Differences Between Newer Rigs and Older CCs

Hello,

As I mentioned previously in another post, my wife and I are going full-timing in either late 2015/early 2016 (will still have to work until 2018) and are doing the research to decide between a DP and a fifth wheel (New Horizons or Continental) pulled by an HDT. We are very interested in County Coaches and are pretty certain that if we decide on a DP it will be a Country Coach.

We have looked at 2014 Newmar DPs and have spent a lot of time researching and looking at pictures of Entegras. It appears that the better quality DPs (Newell, Foretravel, Country Coach, et al) had industry leading innovations earlier than some of the others (Newmar, Entegra).

What are the main things that current model RVs have that didn't exist (or were used sparingly) when Country Coaches were being built? A few things that I can think of are more use of LED lighting, better monitoring systems, diesel pollution devices, as well as all-electric coaches (could be wrong but don't think I've read of a CC that was all-electric). What else? Thank you for any info you may share.
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Old 08-21-2014, 03:07 PM   #2
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Country Coach has been building all-electric coaches at least since 2000. From what I've seen, most Affinitys have been all-electric since mid-2000. I have also seen all-electric Intrigues and Magnas in the same years. Towards the end, most Magnas were also all-electric.
Many folks have replaced their light fixtures with LEDs.
Depending on the year, older coaches may not have HDTVs, but TVs are relatively easy to change out--I installed a HDTV in our coach.
Take a look at empty weight of a Country Coach and compare to a similar American Coach, Tiffin or Newmar. You will probably find the CC is heavier that other coaches, due to a much heavier-duty construction than a typical Freightliner or Spartan chassis.
If you get a late-model CC, there is very little you'll have to give up, unless you enjoy putting up with the DEF requirement on new coaches.
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Old 08-21-2014, 03:14 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peralko View Post
Country Coach has been building all-electric coaches at least since 2000. From what I've seen, most Affinitys have been all-electric since mid-2000. I have also seen all-electric Intrigues and Magnas in the same years. Towards the end, most Magnas were also all-electric.
Many folks have replaced their light fixtures with LEDs.
Depending on the year, older coaches may not have HDTVs, but TVs are relatively easy to change out--I installed a HDTV in our coach.
Take a look at empty weight of a Country Coach and compare to a similar American Coach, Tiffin or Newmar. You will probably find the CC is heavier that other coaches, due to a much heavier-duty construction than a typical Freightliner or Spartan chassis.
If you get a late-model CC, there is very little you'll have to give up, unless you enjoy putting up with the DEF requirement on new coaches.
Thanks for setting me straight. I guess my research skills are not as refined as I thought they were; it completely escaped me that CC made all-electric coaches.
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Old 08-21-2014, 03:29 PM   #4
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I think the mid to late 90s Magna and Affinitys were a little ahead of their time.
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:48 PM   #5
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We have a 2002 and our CC coach is all electric. We took out the older CRT TVs. But we just use a flat screen and that works great. Sound systems have changed. A lot of music now is iPod or on line. But I just plug my iPod into the excellent Bose sound system or iPad to use Pandora.

A big change in Class A's starting about 2005 was more slides. Most higher end coaches 2005 or later had four or some had full wall on one side. Many people want more slides because it does give you lots more room inside. So what is the one thing I have had more trouble with than anything else with our Country Coach. The slides. Two is plenty thank you. I just got finished having the factory re-caulk both front and back. And I just had to replace a high pressure hydraulic hose for the rear slide. In my opinion more space than two slides is useful if you have lots of people over to your coach frequently. If mostly it is just two of you the extra space is not really needed. Plus no slides on one side means easy access to the basement and no slide in the patio.

A significant downside of coaches newer than 2008 is DEF or worse the motor on some Navistars. One of our friends has a newer coach that has had some really serious issues with the pollution control system. We like our reliable CAT C12. Lots of useable power and good fuel mileage.
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Old 08-22-2014, 05:52 AM   #6
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We have a 2002 and our CC coach is all electric. We took out the older CRT TVs. But we just use a flat screen and that works great. Sound systems have changed. A lot of music now is iPod or on line. But I just plug my iPod into the excellent Bose sound system or iPad to use Pandora.

A big change in Class A's starting about 2005 was more slides. Most higher end coaches 2005 or later had four or some had full wall on one side. Many people want more slides because it does give you lots more room inside. So what is the one thing I have had more trouble with than anything else with our Country Coach. The slides. Two is plenty thank you. I just got finished having the factory re-caulk both front and back. And I just had to replace a high pressure hydraulic hose for the rear slide. In my opinion more space than two slides is useful if you have lots of people over to your coach frequently. If mostly it is just two of you the extra space is not really needed. Plus no slides on one side means easy access to the basement and no slide in the patio.

A significant downside of coaches newer than 2008 is DEF or worse the motor on some Navistars. One of our friends has a newer coach that has had some really serious issues with the pollution control system. We like our reliable CAT C12. Lots of useable power and good fuel mileage.
B Bob...thanks for the informative response. The issue of slides not working, getting stuck, leaking, etc. seems to come up fairly often on RV forums. We haven't really decided yet what our ideal layout is and/or how many slides we want. We do know that moving from a 4000 sq ft home into any size of RV is going to seem cramped for awhile. Buying on the used market might not allow us to be as particular as buying new from the factory. I guess we'll see when the time comes.

Anyone else have any differences they see between newer features and what CC might have had before anyone else was putting them into MHs? I've been searching for a website to see if there was a general history of RVs over the past 10-15 years to see if they list when certain new things came onto the market...haven't found it yet but might be able to piece some information together.
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Old 08-22-2014, 10:08 AM   #7
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It came down to the attention detail, and overall quality, that sold us on the CC line. As I walk into many of the newer rigs say in a RV show, very few have the obvious signs of quality. But it was what is behind the cabinets, or tucked up under chassis, that are not as obvious to see - the attention to detail. (Wire harness properly labeled, and tie strapped neatly away. No left over construction debri dropped down behind walls and just left where they fell. Etc.)

Foretravel, Newell and older pre Monaco Beavers, are the coaches that I can think of that had similar attention of detail and quality or suppose the word 'pride' in workmanship reflected as you see in CC's.

I think the pre DEF is the biggest differences in the newer higher end coaches and the CC generations of coaches.

All electric, one difference is that many of the newer higher end coaches today come with Pure Sine Wave inverters. Even all electric CC's 'I think' used Modified Sine Wave inverters. (And that's usually OK.)

I have seen some manufactures doing 'Solar Panel Prepared' options. But, until you design a Solar Panel system, it's very hard to know what kind of wire to run, so not sure if that is a real bonus or not.

One other item that seems to have improved, is the rear and side camera options available. And the HDTV world with matching dishes are also improved.

But, so many of the items that I feel are important to me, may not be to others, so I always recommend budgeting a good hunk of funds to make a used newer coach, your coach. (Rooftop cell phone antenna, phone amps. Rooftop WiFi antenna, inside repeater. HiFi upgrades including a dedicated PC to support streaming. I don't use CB's, so that is a removed item.)

We shopped for a 'solid foundation' and a level of quality that was worthy of 'refreshing' to what we wanted. Still a work in progress for us, but enjoying the process!

I wish your good luck on your search. We did end up with a Class A, but the 5th's you mentioned are nice units!!
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Old 08-22-2014, 10:27 AM   #8
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Our '07 Allure is nearly all electric with the exception of the gas cooktop which we prefer. Residential fridge, bigger inverter, more batteries.

We also shopped for a coach with good bones instead of more 'fu fu'. We have IFS, heated tile floors, aqua hot, HDTV's, built in surge protection, energy management system, 15KBTU roof heat pumps, four slides, beautiful cheery cabinetry, Corian counters, and a solid foundation on top of all that. We don't have an outside TV (didn't want one) or the ever popular bath and 1/2 option on many newer DP's. We also wanted to avoid the DEF issue so just squeaked in with a 2007 clean diesel that uses a DPF and no DEF. I do miss the more aggressive sound of my previous DP with a CAT and a Magnaflow muffler. This Cummins with the DPF is a bit too civilized for a guy who grew up in the muscle car era .

It seems the newer coaches have the 'frameless' windows which look sleek but they only seem to open at the bottom and hinge up a bit. We prefer the framed windows that slide open sideways to get more ventilation. I can say that we are pleased to have this coach with all its features and its quality of construction at a fraction of the cost of a new one.

Like many of the others here, we are 'refreshing' a few interior things... we replaced both sofas with a double recliner and a more pleasing sofa bed. We are changing out the polished brass hardware to brushed nickel and will replace the carpet this winter. We changed all the halogen bulbs to LED's. The only exterior upgrade will be to install a window awning over the passenger side LR slide windows. When it is too windy for the main awning to be out, we would still like to provide shade for those two windows.
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Old 08-22-2014, 11:57 AM   #9
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Like smlranger, we bought a high end used coach and have upgraded it a lot. MCD shades throughout, res fridge, new leather couches, led lights. Past owner had already installed four led TV's. Will do new flooring next. Good luck shopping.
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Old 08-22-2014, 01:05 PM   #10
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[/QUOTE]The only exterior upgrade will be to install a window awning over the passenger side LR slide windows. When it is too windy for the main awning to be out, we would still like to provide shade for those two windows.[/QUOTE]

Me too when I get a plan together. Love to hear how you plan to do it? Did CC install fix plates do you know?
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Old 08-22-2014, 01:13 PM   #11
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The only exterior upgrade will be to install a window awning over the passenger side LR slide windows. When it is too windy for the main awning to be out, we would still like to provide shade for those two windows.[/QUOTE]

Me too when I get a plan together. Love to hear how you plan to do it? Did CC install fix plates do you know?[/QUOTE]

Plan to order the Carefree awning with the same beige acrylic fabric. The hardware is different now but I don't think it will look out of place. I will have my local body shop buddy paint the arms and the metal cover to match the coach.... harvest gold, since Carefree no longer offers the gold anodized hardware. I will use the special rivets through the wall to hold the arm attachments and stainless screws to hold the track above. I did this on my previous DP when I added a window awning and it worked great.
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Old 08-23-2014, 03:37 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJSteinmetz View Post
I've been searching for a website to see if there was a general history of RVs over the past 10-15 years to see if they list when certain new things came onto the market...haven't found it yet but might be able to piece some information together.
It doesn't cover other makers and newer years, but at least this will allow you to see when things were introduced in the CC lines over the years:

Model History | Damon Rapozo

I agree with those who focus on the foundation. Many things that are superficial can be changed relatively easily and inexpensively (I use the term inexpensively here relative for what is inexpensive in the motorhome world, not as an absolute concept). But certain foundational things you'll be stuck with, e.g. whether or not the coach has Aqua-Hot; was made with a steel framed house welded to the chassis so the whole unit works together to make the entire coach stiff with reduced creaks and squeaks and more structural integrity or just an aluminum house bolted to the chassis; has two large inboard airbags per axel that may allow more sway than you're comfortable with, or has multiple smaller bags positioned more outboard that may give you better handling and control, etc.

For me, I am not confident that the emissions system complexity of newer engines wouldn't be a long-term nightmare. And I wouldn't want a rig that has an inferior chassis and engine combination just because the floor plan seems great. Then again, we're not at a stage where we go to one place and park for six months so how things drive is a big deal for us.

Regardless of engine emissions systems, the only new coaches being made that satisfy my chassis desires/requirements are Prevost conversions, Newells, and Foretravels. I am of the opinion that Foretravel is probably king of the quality-price nexus.

In the used market, the coaches that qualify for what I consider to be solid foundations include Prevost conversions, Newells, Foretravels, Country Coaches, and Monaco products built on their S-Series chassis (including high-line Beavers and HR Navigator) (though recently someone had an issue with a critical circuit board on a Monaco product that they were having trouble finding a replacement or repair, which clouds them as a safe option since while they still make Monaco coaches, they are not the same and no longer made on the great Roadmaster chassis.). And, I may as well point out, the only Newells and Prevosts I've liked are still new enough to be out of what I consider a reasonable (for me) price range.

Thus, it comes down to Foretravel and Country Coach. Frankly, I think Foretravels are the better product. But to find something comparable in style, features, engine, etc., you're looking at the Nimbus, Phenix, or newer Foretravels. It sounds to me that you're looking for as big and comfortable as you can find. That means four slides and 45' long. That means the Nimbus is out IIRC. And any nice Phenix you find could be $100,000 to $200,000 more than a comparable Country Coach.

Which makes Country Coach a really great deal in my opinion. I would look for a 2005-2008 Magna or Affinity. Look at this great deal on a west coast (fewer corrosion issues, generally) Magna: 2006¬*Country Coach¬*Magna Rembrandt w/4 Slides¬*listed on RVOnline.com -RVs for Sale

And keep in mind that at some point every company seems to have made a dog, so don't let one bad story get you down. And when people pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for something they often tell you it's great. So don't be swayed by a bunch of happy stories either!

Try to drive a lot of rigs if you can. Maybe you'll not notice a difference in ride and one of the non-custom chassis may be good enough for you. If I were forced to pick between Spartan and Freightliner, by the way, I would choose Spartan.

And in new construction coaches with non-custom chassis I would probably tend towards Entegra now that American Coach is going Freightliner.

But for the same money or less I would much prefer a used Foretravel or Country Coach rather than any of the new coaches coming out today other than Prevost, Newell, and Foretravel.

My guess is that most people that consider themselves "drivers" would feel the same way. Those other coaches just don't ride as solid and quiet. Especially as the years go by. There really is a big difference with a house built with a steel frame welded to the chassis.

On the other hand, there are many, many, people who prefer shiny and new. Or find the floorplan to be paramount. Or don't care that the walls are not vacuum-bonded (one very popular coach builder doesn't vacu-bond its walls, even on its highest line). So you're mileage may vary.

Hope this perspective helps in some fashion. Good luck in your search.
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Old 08-23-2014, 06:40 AM   #13
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Southport makes some great points about overall coach construction. Being totally honest about it, many folks just don't know about, care about, or investigate construction of RV's and go for the glitz. And likely, many of those own and enjoy a more cheaply made RV for years and that works for them. However, some of us are more particular about what we drive.

A good example of cheaper coach construction was my previous coach, a Winnebago Journey DP. Overall, considering what I paid for it and recognizing it was an entry-level DP, it was a good coach. However, I was always tightening things. The side walls were screwed to the floor.... actually using sheet metal screws put in from the side. The screws were not very large or long (maybe #8 self drilling). Many of them were snapped off during construction. One entire sidewall started to separate from the floor at the bottom. I noticed a bow in the wall at the bottom, went inside and looked down and could see a 1/2" gap. I had to remove all the beltline trim to get to the hundreds of screws. I removed those that were not broken off, put loctite on them and added many new screws. The coach had lots of rattles and squeaks. I don't know if Winnebago still makes them that way but I suspect they do. Big difference between that type of construction and steel frames welded to the main frame.
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Old 08-23-2014, 11:07 AM   #14
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Thanks for the great reply. Please see comments below...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty77 View Post
It came down to the attention detail, and overall quality, that sold us on the CC line. As I walk into many of the newer rigs say in a RV show, very few have the obvious signs of quality. But it was what is behind the cabinets, or tucked up under chassis, that are not as obvious to see - the attention to detail. (Wire harness properly labeled, and tie strapped neatly away. No left over construction debri dropped down behind walls and just left where they fell. Etc.)

I haven't been in a CC yet but I do know what you mean when you see the obvious signs of a better built RV. We have been to RV shows and even when you walk into the first weekender camper of any value they look really nice. It only takes 30 seconds or less though to start seeing that a lot of it is just "perfume on a pig" and even what jumped out initially as looking nice is significantly lacking in craftsmanship, quality of materials, care, etc.! And that doesn't even address the behind-the-scenes build of the RVs.

Foretravel, Newell and older pre Monaco Beavers, are the coaches that I can think of that had similar attention of detail and quality or suppose the word 'pride' in workmanship reflected as you see in CC's.

I have tried to like the Foretravels (and they are beautiful inside) but they are just too boxy for me. I am certain I could quickly get over that if I found one for the right price but that is unlikely to happen. The Newells...if only money were no issue!

I think the pre DEF is the biggest differences in the newer higher end coaches and the CC generations of coaches.

All electric, one difference is that many of the newer higher end coaches today come with Pure Sine Wave inverters. Even all electric CC's 'I think' used Modified Sine Wave inverters. (And that's usually OK.)

I am mechanically inclined but am just starting to get smart on inverters (a long ways from that point yet). I know the inverters can be expensive but has anyone changed out their Modified for a Pure Sign Wave? If so, is it difficult or is it just swapping out the units?

I have seen some manufactures doing 'Solar Panel Prepared' options. But, until you design a Solar Panel system, it's very hard to know what kind of wire to run, so not sure if that is a real bonus or not.

Solar is always an interest for us but not overly high on our list. If a coach came with it and the report was that it was a very useful component than I would imagine we would certainly be happy that we had it.

One other item that seems to have improved, is the rear and side camera options available. And the HDTV world with matching dishes are also improved.

Like the inverters above...are the cameras hard to change out if it is something someone decided they wanted to do? As far as TV, I have had DIRECTV since 2000 and the NFL package since 2003...this is something that I intend to have when we go full-timing.

But, so many of the items that I feel are important to me, may not be to others, so I always recommend budgeting a good hunk of funds to make a used newer coach, your coach. (Rooftop cell phone antenna, phone amps. Rooftop WiFi antenna, inside repeater. HiFi upgrades including a dedicated PC to support streaming. I don't use CB's, so that is a removed item.)

All things that I need to add to my list to study. I have never been a CB fan so this is something that would be of no interest to me but internet, cell phone and satellite are all things that I want to get smarter on.

We shopped for a 'solid foundation' and a level of quality that was worthy of 'refreshing' to what we wanted. Still a work in progress for us, but enjoying the process!

I wish your good luck on your search. We did end up with a Class A, but the 5th's you mentioned are nice units!!

Yes, it is a tough decision for us. We have ALWAYS been fifth-wheel people when we were only using them for vacationing or when moving across country during military transfers. We like them for the space, storage, ease of tow, etc.

For the longest time I have wanted a Volvo 780 pulling a 40' plus fiver but we are now pretty torn as to which way to go. My wife has always liked the fifth-wheel kitchen lay-outs with the islands that she could use as a prep area. I haven't seen any CCs with the pull-out L counter like on some of the Newmars but, if they didn't install them, I would think it could be easily done. In fact, we were watching Extreme (or Big...can't remember which) RV on TV one evening and it had a couple who were upgrading a coach of theirs and the pull-out counter was one of the upgrades they made.


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