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Old 05-15-2018, 09:32 PM   #1
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EPM unit on 1995 CC Magna in engine compartment

I am trying to solve a start, but will not run condition, on my Cummins C8.3L mechanical rig.

The "run" circuit extends from the ignition switch through the EPM module to the rear engine shutdown switch and then to the fuel shutdown solenoid.

I have no 12v power at the shutdown solenoid or at the relay next to the ground wire rear shutdown switch.

The fuel shutdown solenoid reacts as it should on the bench to 12v supplied.

So, I would like to locate the EPM module to see if power is reaching it.

Has anyone with this type engine found the EPM thingy that CC installed?
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Old 05-15-2018, 10:06 PM   #2
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EPM module = Engine Protection Module.



I am not all that familiar with every thing the module is suppose to do but there should be an override switch next to the left driver foot. The override switch by-passes the EPM module. You could try pushing the override switch and see if you get power at the fuel solenoid.


I was looking a the schematics for a 93 or 94 Magna for a friend a few weeks ago. If I remember correctly there should be power on both sides of the override switch if the EPM module is not activated. If the EPM module is activated one side should be dead. Pushing the switch would power up the fuel solenoid.


Also last year he was have a problem with starting and ended up running a new wire from the ignition switch to the starter relay in the back.
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Old 05-15-2018, 10:39 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilvmygt View Post
EPM module = Engine Protection Module.



I am not all that familiar with every thing the module is suppose to do but there should be an override switch next to the left driver foot. The override switch by-passes the EPM module. You could try pushing the override switch and see if you get power at the fuel solenoid.


I was looking a the schematics for a 93 or 94 Magna for a friend a few weeks ago. If I remember correctly there should be power on both sides of the override switch if the EPM module is not activated. If the EPM module is activated one side should be dead. Pushing the switch would power up the fuel solenoid.


Also last year he was have a problem with starting and ended up running a new wire from the ignition switch to the starter relay in the back.
Thank you. I was thinking the same thing last night but overlooked that step today and will execute next time I am at the rig.

I still would like to find the EPM module in the passenger side of the engine compartment. I know where the engine kill switch is/was and the relay for it.

I am concerned that if the EPM is taken out of the loop by installing a new run wire, I might loose some system safeguards for the engine provided by the EPM..
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:28 AM   #4
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EPM module Location

Although the schematics puts the EPM in the passenger side of the engine compartment, the CC Manual write up of the EPM says the brains of the module "are in the lower dash".

I suspect they mean the area below the side mounted transmission shift panel.

I will have to explore.

Also, the EPM Override floor mounted switch cancels the fuel shutdown event when pressed. If the triggering condition for the engine shutdown still exists, then the engine will not continue to run when the floor switch is released.

There has been no bell warning or dash warning of a shut down condition.

I will activate the switch to see if it allows the engine to run. If the engine runs but then shuts down after releasing the switch I will have to find the condition that is causing the run power shutdown or replace the EPM module.
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Old 05-17-2018, 09:24 PM   #5
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So in the other post you indicated the Coach will not run with the EPM override switch depressed. That would seem to indicate that the problem is downstream of the override switch.


Can you check the voltage on both sides of the override switch to see if there is power available. If you have voltage on both sides of the override switch with the ignition on I would think the EPM would be OK. However, you may need to check for the voltage as soon as you turn on the ignition as the time delay circuit will time out.


The time delay circuit is need to allow the oil pressure to built. Don't how how long the delay is.


I would do a continuity check from the override switch to the fuel solenoid. If there is no continuity run a temporary wire from the override switch to the fuel solenoid to see if it will run.


Looks like some of the inputs to the EPM are;
Low oil pressure
Low air pressure
High engine temperature
Low coolant


Chances are the low oil and high temperature signals are the shut down signals. These signals most likely come from switches (Low Oil Pressure switch and High Coolant Temperature switch.) You could disconnect the switches which would "tell " EPM that those condition are not met and should enable the engine to run.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:10 PM   #6
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Ilvmgt, thanks for the steps. I will try to follow them on Saturday to see what happens.
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Old 05-24-2018, 11:04 PM   #7
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Trouble shooting these rigs is never simple.

I have to remove some stapled interior carpet to get to the wires for the EPM override switch. That has yet to happen.

But the switch has no effect which tells me the current is stopped at the EPM.

I do know that the ignition switch Run position has 12vdc power to various functions including the Start function but not the fuel solenoid Run position. Next in the line is the EPM.

I cannot yet find the Engine protection Module. It is not below the transmission shifter dash and not in the front driver side lower dash.

I suspect it is below the hydraulic fluid tank at the rear passenger side and almost inaccessible.

I can drive the rig using a manual system of controlling the throttle position, but must access the engine compartment to start and stop the rig. Quite incovenient I might say.

Continuing on.....
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Old 05-25-2018, 09:31 AM   #8
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I think I found my EPM mounted to the frame, in front of the drivers tire. I can see it by laying underneath and looking up. Also, look in your front cap, it may be there. Still have not found the override switch.
I had a no start issue with mine a couple of years ago. It would turn over fine, but no fire. My engine has no external fuel shutoff like yours, but my fuel shutoff is controlled by the engine ECM ( electronic controlled engine). The ECM was not getting 12 volt power. Long story short, there is an inline fuse that was buried in the engine wiring harness and was not easy to find. It was wrapped up and taped, and was located above the transmission. We relocated it for easy access in the future.
Good luck on your hunting, its not always easy on these units.
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Old 05-25-2018, 05:19 PM   #9
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Schematic of my Ignition Circuit

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Old 05-25-2018, 06:11 PM   #10
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EPM Schematic

Here is a schematic of the EPM from my Manual.

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Old 05-25-2018, 08:10 PM   #11
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The schematic is difficult to read. I am assuming that the circle at upper left edge is the fuel solenoid.

Following it back it goes to a relay or solenoid. That relay is shown in a normal closed position. It looks like that is an Emergence STOP relay.



From the relay it goes to the EMP and Override switch, then back to the ignition switch.



Facts

There is 12 volts on the back of the ignition switch with the key in run.

There is no power at the fuel solenoid when the key is in run.



There in no 12v power at the shutdown solenoid (Emergency STOP?)or at the relay next to the ground wire rear shutdown switch

Fuel solenoid works on the bench

Activating the EPM override switch does not do anything.

There are no bell warning or dash warning of a shut down condition.


Since you have 12 volts on the back of the ignition switch with the key in run and no power at shutdown solenoid (Emergency STOP?) that would indicate a bad wire between the shutdown solenoid (Emergency STOP?) and where the EPM/Override switch.



I may have just stated the obvious.


I would check the voltage on both side of the Override switch. If you have voltage on both side of the Override switch that would mean that there is continuity between the Override switch and EPM.



Then I would check that continuity between the Override Switch (both sides) and the shutdown solenoid (Emergency STOP?). I would expect it one side to be open. If both sides are open that is where the bad wire is.



I can't read the schematic, is there different wire number/color at the override switch? If so that will make it easier.
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Old 05-26-2018, 11:37 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilvmygt View Post
The schematic is difficult to read. I am assuming that the circle at upper left edge is the fuel solenoid.

Following it back it goes to a relay or solenoid. That relay is shown in a normal closed position. It looks like that is an Emergence STOP relay.



From the relay it goes to the EMP and Override switch, then back to the ignition switch.



Facts

There is 12 volts on the back of the ignition switch with the key in run.

There is no power at the fuel solenoid when the key is in run.



There in no 12v power at the shutdown solenoid (Emergency STOP?)or at the relay next to the ground wire rear shutdown switch

Fuel solenoid works on the bench

Activating the EPM override switch does not do anything.

There are no bell warning or dash warning of a shut down condition.


Since you have 12 volts on the back of the ignition switch with the key in run and no power at shutdown solenoid (Emergency STOP?) that would indicate a bad wire between the shutdown solenoid (Emergency STOP?) and where the EPM/Override switch.



I may have just stated the obvious.


I would check the voltage on both side of the Override switch. If you have voltage on both side of the Override switch that would mean that there is continuity between the Override switch and EPM.



Then I would check that continuity between the Override Switch (both sides) and the shutdown solenoid (Emergency STOP?). I would expect it one side to be open. If both sides are open that is where the bad wire is.



I can't read the schematic, is there different wire number/color at the override switch? If so that will make it easier.
You have done well with the small schematic and your conclusions.

Actually, there is no power at the Fuel Shut Down solenoid in the Start position either.

I will next splice a cheater wire into the wire 34E at the ignition and wire it to the 118 white Run wire at the Shut Down Solenoid to see if the SD Solenoid functions. This theoretically bypasses the EPM , EPM Overide, and Engine stop switch and relay.

I will try an email attachment of the schematics.
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Old 06-03-2018, 11:28 AM   #13
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EPM module Location Found

I believe I have found the EPM on my 1995 rig.

It appears to be below the hydraulic tank at the passenger rear side of the coach.

I can only access it and see it clearly by crawling under the coach in front of the rear mud flap.

But it does have the Gillig Wire #81 exiting from it.

So much for schematics, and manuals writeups......
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