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Old 06-06-2014, 09:07 AM   #15
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Thanks to all for the responses.

Both old and new solenoids react the same way.

12.6 dcv at positive cable, 0 at lead to fuses.

With ignition key on I still measure 0 at lead to fuses. The leads to fuses have continuity.

When wired as designed, one row of fuses is powered up when the battery shutoff switch is opened. The subject row of fuses require the solenoid to be activated with the turn of the ignition key.

Turning the key on causes the non-solenoid controlled row to go dark (looses power).

Thus the ignition switch or ECM is now suspect. Wires from the ECM provide the ignition solenoid switching function which does not happen.

All fuses work and all functions of the chassis work when the solenoid is bypassed so battery connections, fuse connections, fuse link connections are all good.

Just the solenoid activation is missing or I have two bad solenoids both of which pass the bench testing procedures.

The hunt will continue.
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Old 06-06-2014, 10:00 AM   #16
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If you had 12 vdc across the coil and no action then selenoid bad.

You need to remove the non grounded wire from the selenoid coil and retest.

If now 12 volts then control function working but bad connection or possible weak source.

Use voltmeter to trace wire with helper turning key so you can confirm correct wire via voltage change.

Add some test wires to extra selenoid with clips so you can attach it to test point.

You can break the system into blocks to divide it.

You have keyswitch...ecm...???...selenoid.

I suspect wire from ecm to selenoid is routed via one or more of the "amp" brand connectors...we have a bunch in our 89.

These get aged and possibly a pin has relaxed and is now resistive.

As YC1 stated..DO NOT WIGGLE ANYTHING!!!

You need to sneak up on the issue then carefully confirm it.

If connection you need to measur voltage across it.

Needles ir pins stabbed into the wire distant from the connector allow for voltage measurement without disturbing the connector

If a lug type connection then pin the wire and touch the screw.

You may also have bad wire in a loom.

For those you need long wire to extend your test leads...check voltage drop across the wire.

You need a helper here to be turning the key on and off a bunch...doing it solo will get you real tired and you may miss it.

Been there done that many times...YC1 has also traveled that road.
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Old 06-06-2014, 01:28 PM   #17
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Ok, with this fresh information it should be easy to chase. This fresh information is you stating you can connect the large terminals together and things work.

Now it is time to start over, looking at the small terminals and getting accurate measurements there. I suspect you do NOT hear it clunk as you did when bench testing.

Make sure you are testing with a good ground. If you have a 12 volt test light that would be helpful too. If you have any doubts about having a proper ground just grab an extension cord and plug it into one of your rv outlets. Use the ground lug for one of your meter probes. Or even stretching one lead over to touch your wheels.

You need to see 12.5 volts approximately on one small terminal and 0 volts on the other when trying to activate it. IF, you see 12.5 etc on one side and any voltage at all on the other side then ground that terminal and it will come alive. At that point you can chase your ground issue. In some cases they do switch grounds but not often. If the voltage is low on one terminal and 0 on the other then jumper from the large terminal that is hot to the one with the low voltage and it will come alive. If that is the case you need to chase that line back.
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Old 06-06-2014, 02:50 PM   #18
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I will try to do a continuity test on the wires from the ECM and ECM override switch. These wires activate the ignition solenoid switching. Also I will verify a good ground for the opposing terminal.

However, I have to find the ECM in the passenger side of engine compartment. So far no luck recognizing the gizmo or the specific wire needed to perform the continuity test

Since the rig is now in storage and it is very hot for the rest of the day, that test performance will wait until tomorrow and I will cool my wheels.

Thank you very much for the instructive replies.
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Old 06-10-2014, 03:27 PM   #19
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Resolution +++ Embarassment

Ok, the problem is somewhat resolved.

The ground wire from the small terminals on the solenoid is not working. For some reason the ground connection decided not to work with no known event to cause that result.

A cheater ground connection has everything working as it should.

The next step is some continuity checking to find the actual ground point for the solenoid connection to see what else might be affected.

Thanks to all for your help
.


Message to all: Check the Ground Wire First.
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Old 06-10-2014, 03:43 PM   #20
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Always check voltage across a device!
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Old 06-10-2014, 08:59 PM   #21
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That's good news Dean. At least you can run another ground wire easily and resolve the problem. If your FRB is like mine, the original ground wires disappear inside the FRB.
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Old 06-10-2014, 09:23 PM   #22
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Many measure voltage on the hot side and assume the ground side.

This gets most of us in trouble sometimes...

Given this case you measure voltage on hot side and maybe see 12 volts to ground.

I think Dean noted low voltage at selenoid in early post which may have been measurement across coil.

If Dean would have measured 12 volts also on the ground side it would be clear to continue in the direction of ground.

Dean did well here except he was not real clear on how he measured the low voltage he reported.

A suggestion to all including me is to specify how voltage measurments are taken so we do not assume wrong problem.

I feel bad directing Dean the wrong direction but now Dean knows a bit more about the other parts of his coach so nothing lost except the cost of spare selenoid that is handy and some time.
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:40 PM   #23
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Yep, it is just another learning experience.

YC1 understands my limitations. He and a group of others helped me get my Automatic Water Fill PC board up and working again via this forum about 3 years ago. That was no small task for them.

I built a Heathkit TV via the GI bill in 1970's and learned a bit about PC boards, but age and advanced technology kept me stymied on that PCB problem.

Thanks to all.
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:49 PM   #24
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Phays, yes those two wires join a wire loom and seem to head o the rear of the compartment behind the passenger side of the FRB.

So far, I have found no other features that fail because of using the alternative ground contact.
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:59 PM   #25
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Only thing to consider is creative engineering on the manufacturer part.

Let me explain...

Cheapest way to ground that selenoid is a local ground buss (bolt or strip) that would have large cable attached to chassis close by to save on wire cost and voltage drop.

Why then would it go into a loom that goes to rear...?

One possibility it to insure common ground whilt other is control of said selenoid via removing the ground connection.

Think about the old style horn relay where the button grounds the coil to activate the relay for the horn.

There could be an interlock or disconnect system at play here.

Review your schematic closely to confirm exactly where that ground side or relay coil return goes to be sure you are not bypassing some function.

It could be there was some extra wires in the loom and cheapest was to provide the groung to the selenoid was to use one of them...check it out to be sure.
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Old 06-11-2014, 08:58 PM   #26
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Tony, my schematics include no routing of the ground cables. Just the positive routing.
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Old 06-11-2014, 09:34 PM   #27
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If the ground is not on the schematic as a wire then you should have the ground symbol at the coil.

If it had any interlock or disconnect it would be drawn there.

So you should be good adding the ground.

Leaving existing wire may fix other items that use same ground.
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Old 06-11-2014, 10:28 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TQ60 View Post

Leaving existing wire may fix other items that use same ground.
Now that is a great solution!! Thanks.
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