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Old 09-05-2012, 08:03 PM   #71
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Back switch can be left on unless you want security, no drains with it on.

Leave other switch to "front."

Front switch can be left on if you have a float charger.
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Old 09-18-2012, 05:06 PM   #72
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still learning

I installed new batteries 2 8ds on chassis and 4 6v from costco on the coach side and new alternator battery. I unpluged the inverter so as not to boil my new batteries. I have been sitting 2 weeks on shore power. today i go to coach and all is dead? all batteries in cluding generator battery dead. No lights no steps no nothing. Im still plugged to shore power and though batteries would be find. I wonder what killed every thing? Im still confused on shore power switch up front. I though on shore power battreies would just sit and stay charged. Can I disconnect batteries when on shore power? Plugged in I should have had lights and steps. I really need help figuring the electrical system. Are there no fuses anywhere on my 1987 CC SE? I flipped all breakers? I know shore is working as inverter started to hum when plugged in? Why wouldn't shore power be all that was needed to run coach systems when parked? Hope u see this TC. Need to talked more on this 3 months in and iuts pretty scary.
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Old 09-18-2012, 05:17 PM   #73
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I do not know your coach.

My 1995:

1. The Freedom 25 inverter is also the battery charger. If not in the circuit (unplugged), the house and generator batteries will not charge because the inverter/converter/charger is the battery charger using 120vac shore power or generator power.

2. If the house battery switch is not on, the shore power will not run the 12v systems.

3. If the inverter is not "plugged in", the outlets will not receive 120vac shore power.

4. My roof AC units will run without the inverter as will the washer dryer.

6. The refrigerator needs 12vdc to run the refer control panel and 120vac to run the ice maker.

My guess is that if you are able to unplug the inverter, mine is hardwired, you defeated the battery charging function.
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Old 09-18-2012, 05:21 PM   #74
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TQ i mean. TC was old buddy of mind. When on shore power coach switch should be off right. I should then be all shore power no need for batteries? I sure drained them dry sitting 2 weeks on shore power? very confusing. I need to find a better manual mind seems to be missing alot.
Thanks for help.
Marc
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Old 09-18-2012, 08:42 PM   #75
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"When on shore power coach switch should be off right."

No
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Old 09-19-2012, 02:45 AM   #76
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Deandec is correct: When on shore power, coach batteries should be ON.
I just went thru this with my 1991 CC Sedona. Batteries were boiling. Tech installed new invertor/charger. Batteries not boiling, now dead. Tech installs new Converter and battery isolator. Next day batteries are boiling again. I called the tech (that did the work) and he said that the problem was that I should NOT have the Inverter/charger and Convertor both on when on Shore power. Only the converter should be on. The reason is, that both the Inverter/charger and the converter are charging the batteries at the same time, causing the boiling.

My Invertor/charger is hard-wired. The charger is always "on", even when the Inverter is turned off. Therefore, I had to find the 120v breaker box and turn "off" the breaker for the Invertor/charger. Problem solved.

I'm still abit confused, but I think that's right, but ifnnot,maybe someone will come along to correct me.


So much to learn, so little time.......
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:00 AM   #77
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I put the charger on chassis batteries last night. I also plugged the inverter in all night. Engine started right up. Battreies were showing 12.86v so i must be charhing again. Plus generator battrey seemed to be charging.
Lockrill you confused me on converter, inverter. My inverter is charger right. It must also power coach system when on. Converter i though just changed 12v to 110ac but you think it charges also. I have it off now while on shore power. Will pick up some battery tenders. but now if i put battery tenders on all 3 banks i will need to turn off inverter charger right. I wonder if i can connect tenders to isolator. Guest marine unit for $100 has 2 outputs charges when needed then floats when needed. I have had one on boat for years keeps trolling batteries charged. if this would work it would all fit nicly just above inverter and plug into same outlet. Has anyone used a marine type charger? I can't see why it wouldn't work.

Thanks again for help. I do hope I get to the point where i can help someone.
Marc
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:00 AM   #78
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Buckle up!
If the converter is switched OFF there is NO charging to ANY battery.

If the converter is ON the coach batteries will likely be over charged.

And if converter is off and battery switch is off NO POWER to anything.

I believe the converter can be on and battery off will result in power to lights and stuff, but would NOT reccomend it as the output from the converter may not be filtered very well, have not tried it, just a guess, if you try it make sure ALL electronics are switched OFF!

So, if using accessories in the coach, say you are tinkering or using the coach, then switch on the breaker since it is so easy.

BUT get some clothes pins, write "converter" on one and clip it to the steering wheel or the screen door slider so you will not forget it.

The loud humming at the back corner tends to give it away too...

Engine battery "SHOULD NOT" have any loads when parked unless someone added one.

The disconnect switch on the rear run box disconnects the feeder wire to the dash, wire to isolator and starter (huge one) are still connected.

Generator (alternator to be exact) battery up front also DOES NOT have any shore line servce to charge it exactly...

There is an isolator on ours that is connected to the front battery, have not determined if it allows charging from engine battry circuit or coach battery circuit, safe to assume no charging from shore line.

Problem is the front battery powers all of the backup memory devices such as clocks and radios.

It also is the primary power for the fuel guage, go figure, that one cost us a couple days to figure out.

Ours has somewhere in the skizillion miles of wires and connections a bad connection in the cabling from the battery to the dash area, so th fuel guage was intermittent as well as the clock would loose time.

Replaced bad breaker on firewall and brought new wire inside, added an additional fuse inside to protect the wire that went up to the circuit board above the passenger side, all is well now. There is also battery and ign wires going up there to control the circuit board functions.

If your front battery is dead it is possible there was additional devices added and the previous owner simply connected them to a live wire not knowing the source.

There MAY be a couple fuses in the coach, everything in ours is connected to circuit breakers, some in the distribution box in the bedroom behind the TV, others in the front run box under the hood, and a few hard mounted here and there.

There are some el-cheapo fuse holders for things like the CB ond other items where the fuse holder is already installed on the cord and it was installed as is by CC, or others.

What to do?
GET SOME CHARGERS!
There are many options, the low dollar one is float chargers from harbor freight, they will do about 1 amp, and are on sale for about $8.00.

BUT BE CAREFULL!!!!
These are NOT diode protected, they have a little red LED to indicate operation, but the LED only indicates voltage present on the connection, NOT that they are charging.

Don't ask how we discovered this...

We had added an outlet inside the engine compartment on the curb side since the main isolator is located there, it was connected to the GFI to be in code.

Plugged in 2 HF units and connected one to each battery at the isolator, simple clean and easy, and one could see the LED in passing through the grille.

What we did not know is the sprinkler hit the outlet that we connected to that was not sealed as well as we thought and that tripped the breaker, the LED indicated all was well, but the charger was a load on the battery, combined with other parasitic loads wiped out the charge.

So if you choose to use any chargers make sure that either the charger is isolated when not powered like the Battery Minder, or you get an additional wall adaptor at 12 volts and some relays, the relays are powered by the additional adaptor, they connect the chargers to the battery, have all plugged into the same source, so if no power then no charge, no load and no LED so you can see what is going on.

That takes care of rear batteries, front one will also need a charger, and to do it correctly you should add an outlet.

What we did was to get a few lengths of 3/4 plastic conduit, with a helper you can carefully insert it in the LEFT frame rail from the rear of the coach, your helper will need to twist and shove, you will need to be under guiding it through holes and other things, then you can use flex to get it up to where you can add the outlets to plug in your chargers, pull some extra wires just because.

Our outlet is inside the dash area where the battery minder is plugged in, the power is routed through the firewall to another outlet used as a junction box, handy place to plug in your charger or work light.

Other end of conduit is on left side top of engine compartment, another handy place for work light or other uses, then we added outlet in foot of bed inside cabinets, here is where we installed the battery minders for the rear batteries, ran conduits out to batteries for cabling, all looks factory.

Anyway, back to the issue...

Get a portable charger and get all of the batteries charged up.

Make sure all are clean.

Get a DVM if you do not already have one, make sure it has a 10 amp scale, and you can disconnect the ground the cable from the batteries after they are charged and you can check the loads.

There is a trick to this, first remove the charger and let the battery stand for about 10 minutes.

Remove the ground cable and touch it back to the post, you are looking for sparks.

You may get one if you leave it unhooked for some time, this is NORMAL as there may be filter caps that will take some high currents for very short periods of time, this is if you get ONE SMALL spark.

You do this because the inrush of current can blow out the internal fuse in your meter, you make sure the sparks are finished before inserting your meter.

If you get big sparks indicating high currents then you may have a drain more than the meter can handle, turn things off and pull connectors until the big spark stops, then determine if the action is normal, if everything is turned OFF there should only be a single small spark IF ANY.

INVERTER
If you have the factory inverter, the control panel in the kitchen with the power switch, the load A/B switch and the reset switch and they still all function, then your inverter is likely the original one, and if it is, no charger there.

In the closet there are two ATS, the one on the outside wall is for the generator, the one on the back wall is for the inverter.

There is a box located next to it that contains a couple contactors, those are the relays used to switch output left and right fo rthe different choices for loads, either the Tv and other things or the microwave.

In the ATS there is a circuit board with a delay function, has a LED that may flash, and there is a jumper or switch to disable the delay function, the control can get confused and select the wrong function and your outlets go dead, this one cost us some time to figure out, simple fix is to mofe jumper to disable delay and all is well.

MANUALS!!!
If you do not have the brown file of manuals then spend some time hunting them down.

Spend some time in the AM while all is cool and locate the manufacturer name and model numbers of everything you can find.

There should be a print out behind the mirror in the bathroom, take the door off and get it copied.

THe fridge is likely Dometic RM3801 3 is 3-way, 8 is 8 cu ft

Roof AC are likely Dometic 620015.101, remove a vent and the tag should be visible on one of them.

Converter and inverter are located in the engine compartment on curb side.

You have a coach that was about $200K new in 1987 dollars, you will discover it was built very well for its time, and most everything makes since, previous owners may have modified things to make it difficult, good luck!

Now get to work and let us know what you come up with!
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Old 09-19-2012, 08:11 PM   #79
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OK lots to do.
I think the guest marine charger will work. $100 on amazon 2 outputs. I can mount and plug in to outlet used by converter. Then go to each side of isolator and ground at the back. Like you said nice and clean. A marine charger is water prof no sprinkler problems. So at this point you leave the humming inverter off right? Cant have both going at once. I have some 3/4 white pipe can make run to the front some how. The converter does charge the front battery because it was dead now has life after 24 hrs on converter. but if converter is off then you must have battery tender in the front. I will do some testing i do have a digital meter with the 10amp plug. Just need to learn how to use it correctly.
I have now been charging for 24 hrs will i over charge? I need to get the float charger in asap. Once you put battrey tenders in do you ever use the main converter? Maybe just for a quick charge?
Did you post a copy of the wiring diagram? I bet its the same 1987 to 1989.
thanks again
Marc
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Old 09-20-2012, 11:15 AM   #80
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Shorter one...we hope!
Before installing the marine converter be certian you are not in same spot, verify the charging and float voltages, we can assume it should be fine, but stupid questions are a lot easier to handle than dumb mistakes.

White pipe sill work, but the gray is better, use schedule 40.

DO NOT use old and brittle pipe, you will need it to bend a bit to get it in.

The curb side of the frame as the AC and a bunch of other things in the rails, so too busy to try.

The drivers side has only a couple small items and some air lines, the bulkheads and cross members have openings at the rail interface, so it is not too hard to get the pipe in, you push in one chunk, glue on the next one as you go.

The hard part is behind the water and fuel tanks, you need to wiggle the pipe while your helper applies pressure, when it hits the hole it goes through, the front is a bunch of fun, lots of head knockers.

Also helps to get it at ride height, better still raise it up a bit with the jacks, make sure you stay clear of the suspension.

Also do NOT glue in the flex pieces yet!!!

Get everything in place, then when pilling wires seperate the flex from the straights, the flex is NOT slippery and it is a royal pein in the arss to get the wires in after they are glued, we were able to pull ours apart thank god for the new "safe" glue that is not worth a darn.

We were guessing the front battery was connected via the front isolator, so your charging of the rear battery may get it done, however there may be some isolator loss between the two, so if you install an outlet up there the small battery minder is cheap and very good, will keep it topped off well.

Back to converter, ours is 70 amps.

If you have a pair of 8D batteries you have about 400 to 500 or so amp hours of battery.

The current will decline as the battery voltage rises, but the converter can fully charge a dead battery in about 8 hours, so left on overnight would equalize the batteries, more than that you are asking for trouble depending on the actual charging voltage.

Make sure you keep the water good.

So do NOT leave the converter on unless you are using the coach.

By all means DO USE the converter, just do not leave it "un-attended".

It pulls a good 500 to 600 watts UNLOADED, so in addition to boiling the water out of your battery it will also cause the dollars to evaporate out of your wallet!

You can consider switching it on when you are preparing to use it to equalize the batteries, it should not harm the batteries MUCH as long as you keep them properly watered.

If you are going to use the same outlet that the converter is plugged into for your marine charger I have a sugggestion.

Get an outdoor 25 ft extension cord (no need for conduit this way), a SPDP switch, can be a small toggle switch if rated correctly or what is known as a 2-way light switch, it has 3 terminals.

You also will need a outdoor rated female replacement end, or another cord to cut.

Here is how you wire it, this does NOT meet any building code, but it is only a switching power cord, so be carefull and you will be fine.

Before you cut anything what your are going to build is what looks like a "Y", the top legs of the Y are female outlets and the bottom leg is the male plug, the switch is in the middle.

Determine where you want your switch to go, what type of switch, box and all of that, you need to figure out how long the wires need to be and how to install them, you can come in via a hole under the curb side box next to the bed with the on-road AC, look 4 times and drill from inside, make sure nothing on opposite side, there are coolant lines as well as wires all over the place as well as wide open areas.

Once you get your design ready, drill all of the holes, you will need to cut your cord so that you will have 3 runs from the switch out to the underbelly.

One female and the male will be routed to the outlet where the converter is connected, the other female will be routed to your marine charger.

Make sure you label each one at both ends, a sharpie or colored tape works well.

Wiring instructions
At the switch end you have 3 cut ends of the cords.

Tie all white wires together securely, best to solder and tape, wire nut works too, just be sure connections are sound and well insulated when complete.

Locate a short 6 inch piece of same green wire from your leftovers, if you are using a metal box you will use the ground screw to secure all of the green wires along with the short jumper, if plastic box same as white, connect all green and the green jumper together and tape them up.

Now the "hard" part.
The BLACK wire from the male plug goes to the COMMON terminal on the light switch.

The BLACK wire from the other cords go to the other 2 terminals on the switch.

Take your meter and make sure no shorts.

The SMALL blade is the hot and switched one, all of the large blade and sockets should be connected.

One lead of meter on male small male, other end to small blade on female, the switch selects which outlet is connected.

Once tested then secure switch, the green jumper connects to ground screw on switch, or it connects under the plate.

Now plug male into where the converter is plugged in, plug converter into female placed there, marine charger plugs into that outlet.

Test for operation, then tape up all connections.

Now you can still use the breaker to turn off the "charging system" and the new switch selects either converter or marine, no need to get dirty anymore.

If you use this idea then you can use the converter outlet to power the battery minders because the new switch will disable the converter.

Wiring diagram?

We don't need no stinking wiring diagram...

Have NOT been able to locate anything other than the Gillig supplied one for the chassis, the coach wiring diagram was not sent with the older coaches.

Dean has one for a newer one, the wire numbers are a help.

So one just needs to have pad, paper, pencil, meter, helper, luck, time and a helper..
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Old 09-20-2012, 08:44 PM   #81
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OMG. I will take my time here. I picked up one HF battrey tender $10. So small compared to my guest marine charger. I plan to put it upfront on generator start battery. This will be a good test for me. I missed West Marine today. they have a 2 bank 10 amp on board charger $110. I think that would work perfect.
I think I understand the Y switch. That way I can quick charge with the big converter then just flip switch to float or maintender charger. It seems like when you come off the road you should be fully charged and just use float charging. It may be that you never need the bigconverter again. With the new technolgy the charge systems know when to back off some. I have looked at several marine chargers that seem very smart. I just need to make sure they will handle that many batteries. My boat has 2 big gel type and the guest works perfectly. Now I have 2 8ds and 4 6V and a 12v up front. I have a friend that had a comercial fishing boat i want to see how he solved this problem. Basicly we have 38ft land boat. Many thing should be the same. I know after spending cash on 7 new batteries it scares hell out of me to ruin them with a charger that doesn't know when to quit.
Thanks again will keep u up on my progress.
Marc
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Old 09-21-2012, 11:49 AM   #82
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Cool

massyman here. silvermyr-tq60 is right. and also you can run your 12v acc in coach while (COVERTER/charger) is on. it is hooked in parallel to batt, batt acts as a buffer. been doing it for years. 6v and 6v is 12v. just hook your two 6v in seires pos to neg, same on other two 6vs, and you should be good. if have problem figure it out just email me and i will send you a hand drawn picture of how to hook it. and i think CC is way to over complicated in their elect wirering. used to have 1993 holiday rambler navigator and i thought wirering was much simple. also very nice coach. but back to problem at hand. boat batt tenders should work great, thats the plan for my 85 CC, same problem. but check your breaker in breaker panel, my refrig in on the same circut as CHARGER/coverter, mite need to move fridg to diferent circut(mind my spelling was not A student in spelling class over 40 years ago) you can tie batt minders into conector blocks on frame behind batt tray (on mine) it should work great. and one small tender on gen batt should work great also. well thats all the knowlege that my small but manageable amount of brain cell can manage for today. happy RVing we gone.
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:55 PM   #83
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Hi massyman and TQ. I still can't figure the best way to hook maintainers up. I put my charger on each side of the isolATOR and no charge. Now im thinking like TQ outlets and a charger for each battery bank. I just needto get it done to ease mind mind on battrey boil. So thats my nest step place outlets and mount a charger on each bank. The battery Tender for $20 on amazon seems perfect cheap and good reviews. Add plug ins in the bed room and run to each bank. If not in bedroon then at the back and put in a Y switch to jump between tenders and converter. Im on the hunt for a 110 volt AB switch if I cant find I will make one.Then it sounds like i only use the converter when im using the coach lights, AC whatever. When setting storage mode just use tenders.
Later
Marc
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Old 09-22-2012, 12:14 AM   #84
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[QUOTE=silvermyr;1313900]
"Lockrill you confused me on converter, inverter. My inverter is charger right. It must also power coach system when on. Converter i though just changed 12v to 110ac but you think it charges also."

Sorry for the confusion. My convertor has a charger, yours may not.

Also, the Inverter/Charger and Convertor/Charger that were in our coach when we purchased it was not the original equipment. I have no idea what it had when it came from the factory in 1991.

There is so much to learn and so little time.....
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