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Old 03-16-2019, 11:00 AM   #1
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Shore Power path to SurgeGuard

>Background

I 'may' have the start of a problem with a failure of a electric component. Say may, as I'm only seeing some possible symptoms, and some good just be timing coincidences.

One symptom: In the last 5-6 weeks, I've had two times when I've plugged into Shore Power 50A, and turned on the CB to feed power into the coach. No power ever made it into the coach. And both times, I did not take the time to go check the SurgeGuard lights, to see what signals they may have been reflecting. Instead, both time I first went back to the Shore Power Pole, and flipped off, and back on the CB. Both too those times the power flowed thru, after the normal time delays of the SurgeGuard and ATS doing their things. And both of those times, I've checked the SurgeGuard lights (Our era, this is tucked into a rear cabinet in the bedroom on the Passenger side, and you work your way into closet to look in the plexiglass access panel to see the lights.) - and all lights were reflecting clean good power.

A second symptom: We have an iSocket, that sends a Text to my phone when power is lost and or restored. Also two times now, both time in the early AM hours, I've received texts of a power Off and On, timing makes it look like a quick outage that matches the convention time delay of the SurgeGuard.

Last bit of info, I have a Hughes Autoformer in the 120V power feed. (I'll dig my way back into the rear cabinet later today, to confirm my memory is correct. I believe after I lost an Autoformer in the Yukon to a parks Generator power feed problem, that I changed the sequence. I believe it now is Shore Power > SurgeGuard > Hughes > ATS > to the coaches 120V CB distribution panel. (Though the my memory maybe off, and the SurgeGuard and Hughes sequence could be reversed. The SurgeGuard and Hughes are all Male to female plugs, so easy to move the sequence around by moving the plugging sequence around.)

My thinking and questions:

Thinking
> It could be I have a SurgeGuard failing
> It could be I have a failing ATS (Though I have not heard a 'thunk' from those reported power outages in the early AM hours. Possible we both slept thru it...)
> Suppose the Hughes could be a problem too, but not likely(?)
> I could have some loose connections building up heat
> And, I could have no problems, and everything is working per design.
> It's possible the two times I thought I had turned on the Shore Power Poles 50A CB, that I did not get it on securely. Or, the CB could be failing, and the second time it connected, and the first time it did not.
> The nighttime outages, could have been the SurgeGard or Hughes detecting High or Low Voltage and shutting down. If SurgeGuard, the timing of it stopping. And then due to Shore Power still being active, going thru the time delay analysis, and then coming back on.

Questions
> Shore Power path to SurgGuard (Or Hughes, if it is inline first.). We have the electric reel cable that many of the CC's of this era have. What I don't know is if there is any hard wiring and or male/female plug down inside the cabinet where the cable is coiled. Or did CC extend the cable one to the closet up in the passenger side, where the SurgeGuard is plugged into the Shore Power.

Is it: Shore Power Pole Male > Inside Storage Reel Hard Wired/Plug > Patch cord Hard Wired/Plug out of the Inside Storage Reel cabinet over to the Passenger side cabinet that the SurgeGuard is in.

Or is it Shore Power Pole Male > Cable continuation from the Inside Storage Reel area > Into the Passenger Side Cabinet SurgeGuard.

(Looking to see if I need to find the screws in the Storage Reel Cabinet to look for loose connections.)

> If I have the Hughes inline in front of the SurgeGuard. Do I recall recently reading (May not have been here.) that Hughes bumps up the voltage output by 3V, expecting a longer cable feed from the Shore Power into the coach thru the coaches cable. (Expecting the Hughes Autoformer to be at the Shore Power Pole, and bumping the power a bit, trying to compensate for the long cable feed.). If so, and the Shore Power is say on the high side of maybe 123-125V, and the Hughes Autoformer bumps it by 3V - perhaps the SurgeGuard is seeing Too High of Voltage, and dropping passing power, as it is supposed to.

> ATS failing. If the ATS if failing, and or has loose cables, that could shut off power to the Coaches 120V Main CB Panel, which would then be reported by my iSocket.

> Do I recall that an aging/failing SurgeGuard can sometimes do things on it's own?

=========

OK - Again may not have any real problem, especially if the Hughes is inline first, and the SurgeGuard is closing down. Both times we've had the overnight short iSocket reported outages - we've been in Arizona State Parks with temperatures dipping one time down to the mid 20's (Lost Dutchman) and the second time low 30's (Catalina State Park) - as most of these regions use Electric to heat their homes, and in the park itself, I'd suspect many had 1500W and more (Heated Floor Tile, HydroHot Electric Element, 1500W Portable Heater) were on any many coaches - that power supply may have dipped "low" and resulted in a temporary SurgeGuard shut down.

Due to this now being four times we've seen unusual for this coach events, i want to check the full path. Thus the question about the Shore Power Storage Reel (Well, more of a coil in a bucket!) question about how CC ran the cables inside of the coach. Want to look for loose connections, and snug up as needed.

Any other recommendations on what to preventatively check is appreciated. (I have a spare Progressive EMS, that I could pull the SurgeGuard out of the process, and insert the Progressive. But don't want to just swap out things until I know what is the cause, if their is a problem!

TIA for any thoughts and input, best,
Smitty
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Old 03-16-2019, 04:02 PM   #2
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(Now when I was sub 40, I'd probably have had no problem being Stretch Man trying to get my arms into the small access panel and removing the Access Panel to the Parallax ATS 5070. But today, well it will be a St Paddies Day celebration with the fine added odor of Ben Gay for sure...).

Confirmed my sequence is SurgeGuard then to Hughes then onward. (So no bump up of voltage from the Hughe to trip Higher Voltage cutout by the SurgeGuard.)

After a few words fitting for the locker room, I got the cover of the ATS off. Using flashlight and mirror, and then eventually my camera with prayer induced aiming - I was not able to determine anything that visibly looks bad on the ATS. I'd tightened all the cables lock screws about 3 1/2 months ago. Now that does not mean a relay or circuit control board may not b going out, and I could not get good visibility of the switching mechanisms.

I also double checked the back of the Main CB Panels wire connections, all still snug from 3 1/2 months ago.

I had one email from a friend with a Dynasty, he said his shore power cable goes into the electric winding catch bucket, and then connects to a busbar - which then has a cable feeding over to his passenger side, where his EMS/ATS are located. But, he says he has worked on other friends coaches that had the Shore Power cable as one continuous piece. Running from Shore Power Pole, into the Electric winding bucket, and on out and over to the EMS/ATS are located.

So I'm still don't know if I might have a lose connection inside the closet box that houses the bucket of cable.

If no one here knows how theirs are wired, I'll call Premier on Monday and ask them what they think.

Best to all,
Smitty
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Old 03-16-2019, 11:18 PM   #3
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My shore power cable goes all of the way through the power cord reel/bucket and on to the EMS/ATS location. (I had to get into the bucket to work out a kink about 5 months ago. That was a real pain to do, believe me.) But, if I ever needed to replace my cable because of wear I expect it would make sense to cut it at the bucket and use a busbar or the like to join the new cable to the old portion that's internal to our coach. So, I suspect that unless you know your cable is OEM you may just need to look at your particular installation. Or maybe CC changed their installation approach between the '03 and '04 model years...
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Old 03-17-2019, 01:22 PM   #4
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Thanks Dave - Gives better sense knowing what you found on your coach. And I should have used the word Junction Box vs Busbar...

If I have a ATS 5070 going out, I've no problem with that, as the coach was built in September of 2003 - it's had a good life.

And I'll share that when we went to Residential Fridge, I stopped powering off all 120V loads in the coach before plugging into Shore Power. So the ATS has been subjected to some light loads right at start up. Many recommendations to stop all 120V loads when activating Shore Power. I did this for the first 4-5 years we had the coach, but after installing the Samsung, I elected to stop doing that. (Sure, I make sure no heavy loads like AC, Convection Microwave, etc. is on. But since the Magnum Inverter feeds the Samsung while traveling, as well as other miscellaneous lighters 120V loads of wall warts, electronic components, etc. - I now do not power off the Inverter before changing over. If the Generator was running while traveling, I do turn off all heavy 120V usage (Roof AC's!) and power down the Generator, before activating Shore Power.

So while not a heavy 120V 'instant hit' to the ATS, still more then I'd shielded it from before.

Still plan to try and get better access to the ATS and see I can clean the contact points of the relays switches.

Best,
Smitty
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Old 03-17-2019, 07:18 PM   #5
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I don't power off my Victron inverter either when connecting to shore power. I hadn't heard the recommendation that you should, but in any event it makes good sense to not be pulling heavy loads when bringing shore power into the mix. So, like you, we don't hookup if our inverter is handling any loads greater than our residential fridge and maybe a couple of wall wart chargers, or if the generator is running at the time (rare for us).
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Old 03-18-2019, 12:04 PM   #6
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Have you ruled out Surge Guard 50A yet? Mine was failed recently. You've probably already known the followings -

On the input side, the voltages should read
90-132v black to white
90-132v red to white
about 0v white to green
about 240v black to red when on shore power
about 0v black to red when on single phase genset (only a few like Onan 15000 output 240v)

In case the output side is with all 0's, you know your surge protector is shot. Replacing it is probably the only way to go.

If input has greater than 132v or lower than 90v, your Surge Guard is doing its job.
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Old 03-21-2019, 10:03 AM   #7
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A bit more info, but first thanks CountryFit - good info, and unless I had a power hiccup at the pole, the SurgeGuard would be what could have shut off the power.

I dug around some more, in a non Plastic Man graceful way. I did remove the access panel to the Parallax ATS 5070. Where it's mounted does not give me a good view at the inside (And due to how I have my Hughes strapped in tight to the floor of that same cabinet, I can't unscrew the wood panel holding the coaches Circuit Breaker board and lay it back into the cabinet, to gain good access to either it, an for the SurgeGuard mounted below the ATS.), so I used a mirror and flashlight and did a visual inspection. All nice and clean inside, no signs of any dust (A 'plus' that CC mounted the ATS and SurgeGuard in a controlled clean cabinet environment - vs - where I see other coach manufactures have this in a electrical basement bay which can get dusty at times. The 'negative' is ease of ready access to these units!). All wires going in/out of the ATS, are clean with no signs of oxidation and all wire insulation is in pristine shape. With a bit of pain, I could again get my screwdriver in and recheck each of the wire hold down screws. All were tight, with only one that I could even tighten a bit more, not even a 1/8 of a turn (It was tight, and due to the angle of working, I could only snug it a smidge more (Left arm, vs I'm right handed.) - none of the others could I even budge. (And note, I usually like to loosen the wire hold down screws a bit first, and then retighten. But in this case I did not.). I could see where the contactors were, but could not get access to them. But no visible signs of any distress. Nope, could not inspect or clean the actual contact points. I had the DW go out and plug in the shore power, turn on the main 50A CB, and waited with my head in close to the access portal to the cabinet. After the appropriate time delay THUNK with a solid activation of the ATS. No chatter. And by the way, our ATS does not hum loud enough for us to hear it inside the bedroom area. With my head next to the access port, I could hear a very faint hum.

The only load that came on at start up, were a few wall warts, and the Samsung RF18 did power on, Microwave went to Set Clock position. I had the DW turn of the MS2812 Charger, the moment it started reflecting activity (Before it activated the Charge cycle.). I then took reading temps with the infrared gun on ATS, SurgeGaurd, Hughes, Female Outlet from the Shore Power, basically all boxes, and wires, and plugs that I cold hit shoot with the guns temp sensor. Wrote them down, 87-93 degrees at that time, all within under 2 mins of ATS THUNK.

Had the DW turn back on the MS2812 charger. Waited 5 minutes, and retook the temps. All were about the same, except the Shore Power Female Outlet had gone from 93 to 98. Had the DW start Pre Heating the Convection Oven. Waited 5 minutes, and now the Shore Power Female Outlet was 102. And a 1" square section of the SurgeGuard was also now up to 99 (And move outside of this 1" section, back to 89-91 degrees everywhere else. And my baseline temps at start up with no load, may not have 'struck' that 1" area, I was just getting hardwire connection feeds temps, and around the casing of the SurgeGuard temps. The part that was 1" or so that was hot, was on the side, just above where the Bypass Key is on the unit.

Had the DW now add another load via the front AC unit, oven still on, charger still on. Did not wait a full 5 minutes, as I smelled electrical wiring burning. Had her go shut down the AC & Oven, told her to not bother on the Magnum, but to go out and turn of the shore power CB, and unplug the cord. While she did that, I took a temp reading not he Shorepower Female outlet - 127 degrees, and the Male Plug going into it from the Hughes Autoformer which is first in line from the Shore Power, was 128 degrees.

Let things cool a bit, unplugged the Hughes Autoformer. Inspected the blades and yep, some discoloration on the neutral blades tip.

Took apart the Shore Power female outlet, and all the cables inside were snug and no signs of insulation damage. Used a small jewelry kit skinny file, and cleaned the inside of the female blade receptacles. Put the outlet back together, but nothing plugged into it. Had the DW go plug in Shore Power and turn on the power. Took readings, and all were within norm.

Plugged in the SurgeGuard, now bypassing the Hughes Autoformer, waited for the Thunk of the ATS. Again had DW turn of the Magnum Charger (Comes on automatically when it 'searches out, and finds' power. Fridge came on, and wall warts again, and microwave back to Set Clock. Waited 5 minutes, took temp readings.

Then we slowly repeated the process adding more power demands within the coach. Finally back up to where we this time had both roof AC's fired up at the same time for over 5 minutes.

The Shore Power Receptacle/Outlet did go from about 91 degrees (This is mounted right against inside of the coaches exterior wall, with Dark Maroon paint outside, and full direct afternoon sun hitting it. So a bit warmer environment.) to 96-97 degrees. ATS remained 87 the full time. The SurgeGuard again had that 1" bit that was hotter then the rest of the casing and or hard wires In/Out connections. The 1" area did go to 101 with one AC, and 104 with the second AC running. I let things run for like this for two hours, checking temps every 20 minutes or so, and the temperatures remained constant.

So what? Well I speculate that I have an intermittent problem with the Hughes. I'm leaving it out of the loop for now. When we get home the 1st of April, I'll remove the Hughes and first thing I'll check is the female receptacle. (Via the Google Search feature, I've read of two reports on RV's and one on a boat. These Hughes had been left in line for multiple years. What they reported is that spring tension of the Female Outlet on the Hughes, got weak, and loosened the grip on a plugs blade(s). So I'll check that out first.

Now the DW, of course, thinks that I must have 'messed something up' while working back into cabinet inspecting everything. Nope. Nothing that I can think of that I did, by visually inspecting the ATS, and or trying to re-snug up the wire screws on the cables - should have caused any problems (That I can think of...). I told her I think we were lucky, and that by good timing we caught what could have caused a melt down like runaway... I do suspect the Hughes had an intermittent problem. And that while inspecting and validating all of the plugs were in tight, which I did with the SurgeGuard Male out of the Hughes, it set things up for a more dramatic event. Nothing quite like the smell of hot electrical to set a good mood!

I did also go thru three more Shore Power Off/On restarts, with again gradual increase of power demands within the coach, over the course of that afternoon. Everything now 'seems' to be OK. (Not sure I like the higher temp on that 1" area above the Bypass key switch on the SurgeGuard - but, it could be normal and have bee that way since day one, as I've never taken a reading before.

I do have a spare Progressive 50A EMS, for at the pole use. I may put that into he loop, and set the SurgeGuard to Bypass mode, and see if it still gets hot. But part of me thinks I should just leave everything alone, until we get home and I have all of my tools, and all get the Hughes out and inspected. Which will also provide better access to the ATS and SurgeGuard.

Another not so short posting from Smitty - it's my nature! But wanted to share where I was on this adventure, and pleased to not have had an expensive marshmallow roasting event too!

Best to all,
Smitty

(And note. Sure not bashing the Hughes. I did buy it used, actually it's my second used Hughes Autoformer, with the first one getting toasted in the Yukon from a parks Generator Surge - it took one for the team! I know for a fact they've helped us a few times a year in different parks with low power. Once I determine that the Hughes 'may' have a problem, I'll either get it repaired, and or will replace it. But do think from now on, I'll leave it out of the loop until needed.)
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Old 03-21-2019, 02:33 PM   #8
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Smitty, it sounds like youíve isolated the problem. Have you considered moving your surge protector down stream of your ATS? That way it will protect the coach from your generator as well.

Iím planning to remove the Surge Guard and discard it. In its place Iím going to install a Progressive Industries 50 amp hard wired surge protector with remote. Weíve had one on our Safari since just after we bought it. I like the fact that it gives you a previous error message as to what the problem was if in case it was a momentary problem. Iíll have to rearrange the configuration to get protection from generator but Iíll never feel safe until I do. Iím sure the Surge Guard does itís job but it looks like it lacks some of the features of the PI brand.
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Old 03-21-2019, 02:52 PM   #9
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I thought CC installed the Surge Guard at down stream of ATS on all of its coaches, no? Mine was installed that way. I found out my SG failure when I was running genset, so definitely mine protected both shore and genset power.
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Old 03-21-2019, 10:29 PM   #10
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I thought CC installed the Surge Guard at down stream of ATS on all of its coaches, no? Mine was installed that way. I found out my SG failure when I was running genset, so definitely mine protected both shore and genset power.
Just to note that my manual shows the SG being installed before the ATS, and only on the shore power side (not the genset side). I'll need to look at it sometime and see if it's actually installed that way.

Wouldn't installing the SG downstream of the ATS expose the latter to harmful surges? Seems like having the SG be first in line would be safest for the system, although I do like the idea of having the SG also protect against the genset going haywire with its power output.
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Old 03-21-2019, 10:34 PM   #11
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Another not so short posting from Smitty - it's my nature! But wanted to share where I was on this adventure, and pleased to not have had an expensive marshmallow roasting event too!
Smitty, I'd like to thank you for the detailed write up of your process. It's stuff like this that will help folks like me do the right troubleshooting when we get in this type of situation. Next time I'm hooked up to shore power (currently dry camping) I'll be measuring the temperature on my SG, particularly the 1" area you mentioned!
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Old 03-21-2019, 10:39 PM   #12
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It was in 2014 or so I noticed my wall outlets had no power while I was on genset. Further tests led to the discovery of genset Voltage Regulator shot which output 135v. Called Jeff in Powertech and bought a VR for $220. R/R was easy though.

There is a real chance of genset irregularity.
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:58 AM   #13
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Just to note that my manual shows the SG being installed before the ATS, and only on the shore power side (not the genset side). I'll need to look at it sometime and see if it's actually installed that way.

Wouldn't installing the SG downstream of the ATS expose the latter to harmful surges? Seems like having the SG be first in line would be safest for the system, although I do like the idea of having the SG also protect against the genset going haywire with its power output.
Dave, I think the ATS is designed to handle most normal surges where as our other electrical stuff in the coach is not. Not sure what the ATS costs but it canít compare to what a catastrophic event from the generator could cause within the coach.

Weíve been dealing with several other fixes in ours since purchased in September but in short order Iím going to rewire it with the Progressive Industries 50 amp protector just before the buss bar.
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Old 03-22-2019, 02:04 PM   #14
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Smitty, I'd like to thank you for the detailed write up of your process. It's stuff like this that will help folks like me do the right troubleshooting when we get in this type of situation. Next time I'm hooked up to shore power (currently dry camping) I'll be measuring the temperature on my SG, particularly the 1" area you mentioned!
Thanks Dave... The hard part for anyone reading, is I'm not a good writer (I know that, and my wife explains my writing is like my talking - where I use 10 words were 3 would do. And, I also get a good workout of my arms - as when my mouth is moving, my arms are moving!)

I used search here on IRV2, and google, and always review the files Yahoo Country Coach Owner Group too - when researching problems. Very seldom do I not find either the actual problem, or at least a symptom close enough to mine - to give me a clue as to what to look for... That's what is so cool about these forums - everyone helping each other...

And when it comes to electronics, I'm smart enough to know what I don't know. And at the sometime, always think 150% safety... This is from early life lessons, of working with electronics. Licking my finger and sticking into a socket to see if it's live - really gives you a lively step to your dance!

I found many crossover items between Monaco and Newmar Owner Forums - when researching problems with the Allure. Lots of common components, engines, generators, electronics, etc. between these coaches...

Best to you, and all,
Smitty
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